Playing by the Rules with the CLA with Dr. Alex Lascu

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Within this podcast, Alex and his guests unpack how an ecological dynamics framework Impacts our perspective of the game. If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, this is the podcast for you.

Welcome back to the Transforming Basketball podcast. It's a return guest joining us, Alex Lascu. Pleasure to have you back on the podcast.

Thank you. I think this is my first return podcast appearance for any, so this is, this is a momentous day.

Long overdue. So it's— I love the first chat we had. And of course, we were just speaking, we have no pre-planned questions for this, but we've got an exciting event coming up which we wanted to talk about, and that is CLA Playing by the Rules, uh, a really interactive coach development workshop we're going to be running together in London for coaches from across, you know, the London area, maybe further afield in the UK who are interested in the CLA.

So Can't wait to work with you, and it's going to be amazing while you're over visiting from Australia to put this on.

I think it's going to be kind of funny that this will be the first time we meet in person too. It's going to be a real test of our ability to collaborate, but I'm actually really looking forward to it because I know that at the very least it's going to be entertaining and a quite genuine experience of what using the CLA is.

I think it's quite easy to get bogged down into the specifics of it, the technicalities of it, but something that we kind of live and breathe. And so being able to share that with people, that genuine approach to it, or how emergent it can be, is what I'm looking forward to the most.

Yeah, I love that. Something, Alex, I've learned a lot from and taken directly from you is just kind of how you use the CLA to actually develop coaches. And I, I think we've spoken about, you know, trying to— we obviously tried to get a basketball court, and unfortunately the, uh, The forms of life in the UK and the lack of basketball courts available on a Thursday evening in East London made it somewhat challenging.

But we've got a really, really nice, relaxed kind of open-plan workspace, and I think it's going to be very practical. But could you maybe talk a little bit, Alex, about how you actually go about your coach dev in a very, you know, contemporary way?

Yeah, I think the best example of that actually comes from before I worked as a coach developer. I was trying to explain the constraints-led approach to a bunch of exercise physiologists, and I rearranged the classroom. So I wanted to see whether or not the form of life was strong enough that they would rearrange the desks into the traditional rows that you would have in a tutorial room, or if they would just kind of sit awkwardly at the desk, even if it was facing the wrong way.

And I don't know, just like sit backwards on their chair, or would they move the chair? And I use that as a good introduction of how like setting up an environment can actually dictate the way that you use Mm-hmm. And it completely blew them away because I personally wouldn't move the chairs.

Like, I'm just not that comfortable, especially in a new space, to dictate how I would use that space. So however it was left or however it was set up for me, I would kind of just fit into that, especially if I feel not quite psychologically safe enough to manipulate that space.

And so that was a great idea for them in terms of how they set up gyms, how they introduce their clients, etc. But for us as coaches, I think, and coach developers, it's quite similar. So I use a lot of the constraints-led approach around trying to give direct experience to coaches wherever possible while they are learning.

And something we've spent a lot of time with is not just actually getting coaches to do the activities while they're on a coaching course, but can we get real people there? So all of the chaos and the mess and the genuine interactions that you need to manage and then try and develop your own learning along the way is as realistic and as close as possible.

Because we got so much feedback to say that people love the courses, they love the Our deliverer is amazing, and I don't deliver them. I actually just sit back and watch wherever possible, and they go straight back to their own coaching environment and do none of it because they don't feel safe.

They don't feel comfortable. They know they will probably be judged by somebody else, and all it takes is a text message from someone to say, "Hey, why aren't you over there in the net? Why are you on the field right now? Are you ungrateful for the time that we set aside for you?"

And you're like, "Oh." I'm going to go back over there and do what I did every other day because that's safer than me trying to be different right now.

I want to go back to the part you just finished with in terms of kind of what happens next after some type of coach development event, or maybe it's like a licensing course, whatever, because I think that's the biggest thing missing right now in the sports world.

But before that, maybe I guess, I guess you could call it applying representative learning design to a coach development experience. And something I've been playing around with is just having, like you said, having players available when possible, and giving just simple, really simple kind of, I guess, constraints to coaches, like, all right, try and design an activity.

And I maybe give them a principle of play or something, and you often see a drill, and then you can just start shaping it, like, all right, now find a way to put a decision in there. And it's, it's really nice just seeing some of the ways they work together and, and kind of collaborate on that.

I think going back to, to what you just highlighted, A lot of the problem in the basketball world, especially in Europe where we have these coach kind of courses, is it's very— it's great because coaches do the courses. I mean, in the US there's no licensing system, right?

It's kind of like the Wild West. But in Europe, more federations now are actually looking to use the CLA in their coach ed, which is great. But then nothing happens after the workshop. So a lot of coaches are often inspired, but then they feel like they That the support is more important after.

So what can some solutions be to actually, you know, change this and increase the, I guess, the aftereffects of coach development workshops?

Yeah, the stickiness, right? Like we want them to feel like they can take up with it and run with it. I think the biggest thing that we're trying to do is we're almost trying to attack the problem on 2 fronts. So, and the first one is I want the genuine learning experience that they have to be as close as possible so that we can maximize transfer.

When they're doing said course. And so we're actually trying to get to a point where it feels like a seamless transition rather than going from a field on the other side of the state to your local field. It feels like you're on the field next door.

So it's not that far away from where you would normally be coaching metaphorically. And then the second half is trying to provide a bit more support in their own environments by connecting them to other coaches and then trying to reconnect with them later.

So the biggest thing is that I don't want someone who wants to learn something about their coaching or to innovate the way that they approach things to feel like they're alone. So building those connections with other coaches at their clubs, I think, is the biggest thing that we want to try and target, especially from what I've learned.

And like my first season as a coach developer, we are too far away to be there and support them. But I don't have any knowledge that the other coach training next door doesn't have. That's a really hard thing for people to accept, that we are not a source of all knowledge, whether or not we run A course does not dictate whether or not you can learn something.

So how are you going to find the next person that you can learn from? Who is your experienced other? That experience doesn't have to be someone at an elite level, doesn't have to have someone with doctor at the start of their name. It just has to be somebody who can feel what you're feeling and will ask you the right questions when you are ready to have them asked.

And that is probably going to be the hardest element of what we do because we're almost trying to disseminate that role of the coach developer to literally every coach.

Yeah.

coach in the system. Everybody can help everybody because your experience coaching that age group or a different age group or boys or girls is so much richer than anything I can ever write about.

I love that. I think that's why the biggest thing I've learned is over the last, I'd say particularly the last kind of year or so, is shifting from when you, when I'm doing coach dev, instead of just literally lecturing, talking, trying to draw it out from the coaches themselves.

And I think it's more about asking the right questions Sometimes and having being really intentional with how you go about that versus just you know his his some slides are going to go through blah blah. So I guess that's a good bridge for what we're going to be doing in London.

The rationale behind us doing it, Alex, I think we often see the practicalities of of the CLA. Sometimes I think really going into that can help coaches understand maybe bits that they're actually doing already. But they can ramp up the intentionality far more and maybe understand why particular things are effective.

Would you say it's, it's kind of, that's one of the key reasons we want to put this event on?

Yeah. And I think that's why I really liked the, almost the play on words about playing by the rules, because the diff— there's a clear distinction between rules and constraints. And I think those misconceptions make it really difficult for people to tease apart what they're really doing.

And I also think that anyone who thinks they're already using the constraints-led approach, just because they're manipulating constraints. Isn't quite clear. And it's a really hard thing to come to terms with. Like, I know when I am doing it and when I'm not doing it because I've constantly had to go back and ask myself, is this in good faith?

Am I creating the space that I really wanted to create right now? And are the people in front of me having the experience that I would hope they have? Am I checking in on that? And one of the biggest things is that intentionality.

And it can be really scary to go and do that by yourself or with someone that you don't necessarily trust or doesn't understand how unstable it is to start asking these questions.

Yeah.

It really feels like— I used an analogy the other day with a friend of mine. Like, it feels like I'm learning to snowboard again. Every time I think I've got my feet, every time I think I'm balanced, I catch an edge and I just faceplant out of nowhere.

And you're like, but I was doing so well 10 seconds ago. What do you mean I'm doing it wrong now? And just when you sit there with snow in your face, you start to realize that, oh, this is going to be a common, constant thing.

I'm never going to get to the point where I can ride to the, you know, the best of my ability and never, ever, never hit the snow. If anything, I need to hit the snow to be like, okay, what went wrong? How do I get better at this?

And it's really hard to get to that moment alone. And I don't think you should have to do it alone. That's kind of why I ended up in the coach development space. Like, I never want someone to sit there and be like, Dan, there's nobody in this world who could help me right now.

It's funny, it's the conversations which I think are the biggest part of just being able to, uh, you know, use an ecological approach effectively. It's where I think back to where I was at the start. I was thinking this the other day because I'm, uh, I'm gonna go on.

I'm about to record an episode with Stu, you know, on Talent Equation. And I was thinking back, Alex, to the first time I'd ever heard of CLA, where Stu was presenting at the conference, and the questions I asked him, I would cringe at them now.

You know, I think I'm gonna try and bring them out on the podcast. But it's like the conversations with like yourself, Adam, you know, all these people who I'm lucky to have right now. That's how you learn. And it's like being vulnerable in those groups.

And I think if coaches maybe That's, that's, I think, one of the best things of running an event like this. I think coaches can develop a support circle, maybe, maybe with coaches outside of their sport who are just as open-minded, just as curious.

I think developing those authentic relationships can be just one of the best, you know, elements of doing something like this.

It becomes another plot, right? So I almost see it as like my development has so many different elements that I can target. And that peer-to-peer learning of finding a coach that kind of gets what I'm trying to do, or is at least sympathetic or empathetic to what I'm trying to do, that gives me an element of learning that I can't really get from anywhere else.

And then I want to search for all the other elements too, because if I only focus on that section, then that's great, I'm going to get all of this learning in one direction, but then I'm going to become lopsided as a coach. I don't just want to be able to learn what this person has, I want to balance out that learning experience across many different things.

And to me, that is, you know, spending time with different sports, listening to different thinkers and seeing why we differ. over particular things, or where that difference might come from. I love talking to other people about the, the struggles they have in their work environments and being able to implement a lot of coach development.

Where do those conversations break down? So I know that every time I have a touchpoint with someone or something, I'm seeing it not just from like this one quite stagnant point, but actually this like ongoing sort of radial graph that keeps growing every time I have a conversation.

Yeah.

That's great. So Alex, one of the best things for the podcast is I get to ask questions which selfishly I'm interested in learning about. And something that I wanted to go back on was, I'm just always thinking about this, how to actually design a coach licensing system in a more ecological manner.

And I want to go back to this because I'm— there are 3 federations in Europe who I'm aware of, maybe there are more who I'm not aware of, but it's— there's Norway, Sweden, and actually Austria who want to actually have kind of go, you know, how— go full CLA in their coach ed.

And, you know, I think Sweden already doing that, Norway I believe, and I think Austria about to start. I'd be really interested in, you know, say you were responsible for coach education for a federation or whatever, how would you actually go about— a lot, a lot of the time they have like 3 days, 5 days together, sometimes it's 1 day, and, you know, it's different levels.

How would you like reframe the licensing system that's typically used in, in the basketball space?

Gee, you're really taking some easy questions on me today. It's funny because we've been going through a similar process here, I guess, on a national level. And one of the biggest things I've loved to see is, I guess, the different degrees of participation.

So something that one of my PhD students wrote about recently was about legitimate peripheral participation. And so if we think of the lower levels of like certification or courses as like this, you're starting to come off the sidelines a little bit more and starting to get curious and drawn in, but you're not quite confident or strong enough to really take over it for yourself.

I think being able to get as much learning from that space as possible is really important rather than forcing people to be a head coach before they're ready. And so how do we actually accredit that experience of learning from the sidelines But still being engaged in a rich way.

And I think a lot of that comes from being able to track our, um, what we're observing, to reflect on that, to then have some ideas about how we change our practice. And it's almost like an action research cycle. I noticed this, therefore I think it kind of fits in here.

Let's see where that fits. Okay, it wasn't like that, so let's try it again. And those processes, uh, I think are one of the hallmarks of like foundational learning. If we can, if that's the first thing that we learn is to actually try something, see how it goes, reflect on it, try again.

Then we can actually move from there in a far more ecological way than we do now, which is to perform an assessment or act in a certain way that looks like coaching to get that first tick box. So I think for me, it's like that first sort of level.

I would love to see that as the foundation of just that legitimate peripheral participation wherever possible that slowly starts to feed itself into your practice if you feel safe enough to do so. And then I think the next level of that is probably getting to a day where you're prepared but not planned as the person who is running the course.

So seeing what really pops up from their own environments and seeing the process that they go through to try and tackle that problem themselves. If we want our athletes to be problem solvers, we kind of need our coaches to do the same if they want to then set the right problem for them to solve.

So being able to reflect that experience, it literally just feels like holding a mirror up. Okay, now I am the learner. I'm pretty sure there was a recent paper just on this, like coaching to learn, learning to coach, where you actually just You go through that process that you used to when you were an athlete yourself, if you ever were one, or when you learn anything at all.

How do I solve this problem? What is the problem? How do I then get support to solve it? What am I going to do next? And I think it's just the depth of that action research cycle changes over time. But if we predetermine what our curriculums are or what our direction of travel is before the coaches get in the room, we miss so much of what would be relevant to their context that we don't even develop them in the first place.

And that's a really big ask because not only does that put a lot of pressure on the coach developers, but how do you, you know, administrate that? Yeah. How do you make sure everyone gets the same experience or is at the same level?

Well, actually think they're one step further than they were before, and that's all I'm really looking for.

Would— I love that, Alex. Would you say the idea of a curriculum is redundant? Because it's a lot of the coach licenses have these curriculums and it's all— it's obviously based on techniques, drills. And it's, I guess there's having some type of framework is useful, right?

But I guess it has to be a living one where maybe the coaches actually on in the courses have a chance every year to contribute suggestions, revise it together. Would you say something along those type of lines?

I actually think it's probably like, it's more like a Goosebumps novel. I don't know if you ever read those books as a kid, but like you, you still have a book, right? So The idea is that you can turn to whatever page you need to next.

So you might have a choice. You can go back to this page or forward to this page, depending on your direction of travel at this fork in the road of the story. I think curriculums, when they operate like that, they're incredibly valuable because we still need to have a certain amount of things that we want people to be able to know and then to help somebody else.

So I don't think they're entirely redundant, but maybe the linearity of it is where they stop being useful. So being able to almost like pick off a menu or to find that element of learning that's just in time for what you need to know for your players or for yourself as a coach might be more beneficial.

And we might see a bit more engagement in those courses as well, because you can genuinely see how it fits back into your world. I don't necessarily need to focus on shooting because I've got a crop of great shooters. Great. So what else do I need to go?

I need to get into better positions so people take those shots. Perfect. Okay. That's the thing that I'm going to focus on in this course, but all of the other options might be happening at the same time. But for me, this is what resonates the most.

This is my next element of learning. And yes, eventually you're going to get to a point where you have to learn something that is maybe not the most engaging, but if that's the last thing to get your accreditation versus the first thing, I think people would engage completely differently, especially if all the way along they got to have that autonomy of what their learning can look like.

And then we do sort of almost those compliance elements to really help them level up.

That's it. I think it links into— I think if that existed, coaches would actually be more inspired and motivated to continue this once they leave and go back to their clubs. And I think, I guess the last part would be federations introducing a really comprehensive— I guess it's got to be a process where the coach education, the first workshop is not the end, it's just the start point to their journey.

And reframing that whole kind of, I guess, experience when a coach interacts in education with you, your federation. It's not just, all right, we're going to see you at these set events every year, but we're going to create an online— maybe it's online, whatever, just an ongoing support mechanism to continue helping those coaches.

Yeah, and incentivizing that too. I'm always super conscious of like mandating something or trying to get people to do it for compliance. It's never really going to be faithful to that inspiration or curiosity-led learning. And so Trying to find the right ways to encourage people who are willing to go in and keep learning.

Can we amplify those people rather than to drag the people who don't want to do it to come along? Because I think the power of being that innovative coach, of that sort of self-motivated coach, speaks for itself. And ultimately, we're doing it, I would like to think, regardless of whether or not we're volunteer or paid, the experience of the people that we're coaching would play a really big part in what we do.

And if you really do get to see that change, if There is some sort of tangible difference in the way that you're coaching and the way people experience it. It's kind of addictive to be like, okay, well, what else could I do? Like, if this, this one element of learning got me this far, or it helped this person who I thought I could not help or was beyond my help, what else can I do with this kind of stuff?

And that's, that's always how I've ended up pursuing education. And I get that not everybody is like that. Not everybody feels like another 1% that they could find somewhere and they'll push for that. But I think I'd rather feed the hungry in that I'm willing to create a system that genuinely supports those people.

And then I'll bring the rest along with, you know, the baseline kind of understanding of what our approach looks like or what good coaching practice looks like and what we choose to accept in our, especially community sport environments, which can be far more volatile than they ever should be.

And then eventually, once we get to that point, they might stumble upon their own coaching journey that That is ready and there for the taking.

Makes complete sense. I think, I think too, Alex, just having— if you, you always get a few, I've noticed a few really engaged coaches who— and I've noticed that just in all the clinics I've done over the last few years, there's always a few who are like nodding, you know, very to everything you said.

It's really nice when you're doing a clinic and you see that. But I think if coaches who actually demonstrate that commitment and willingness to actually really, you know, learn and put themselves out there and try this stuff. I think that's how you find the candidates to deliver future coach development.

And a lot of federations tell me, you know, there's— they say to me, oh, but there's no one who can deliver CLA courses. Like, you know, we can, we can only bring in Transforming and that's it. But the thing is, there's actually loads of candidates in their country, but they have to feel like there's an actual next step for them to progress and actually be doing that.

And unfortunately, what we see a lot of is it's just universal in sport. The same people in the same positions over many decades. And I, I think, you know, if you have a coach who's, who's maybe on a Level 1 coaching course, in, in my opinion anyway, if they really put 6 months of work in, I, I'd have no problems with them delivering that Level 1 a year after because they could be such a good candidate.

But unfortunately, we have this idea of rites of passage, you know, you've got to wait 20 years until you can do that. And I think that's really what's stifling all of this. Yeah.

And that idea that, oh, it was hard for me, therefore it has to be hard for you. I think that's what kills me the most. Like the amount of times I've run into that sentiment. People don't even realize it is a sentiment, I guess.

But because, and especially being a young person in coach development, like both my, me and my, the team below me are quite young. We still run into, I guess, a lot of the, well, what could you possibly know at your age? You're like, well, I don't know, man.

Like I've spoken to a lot of coaches in a lot of sports and all of them tell me something different. So I'd like to think my knowledge base is quite diverse and Ultimately, I'm not saying you need to know what I know. I actually want to know what you know.

So it doesn't really matter what I come in the room with, as long as you feel like you're being valued in this moment. That's what coach development is. Like, I'm not here to feed you information because I predetermined in my ivory tower that it's worth knowing.

Like, there is a lot of stuff out there, and you are doing a lot of stuff. How can we get you 1% closer to where you want to be, or where I don't know, the young people in front of you want to be.

Because I would— I care more so about what that experience is of the young people that you're coaching than it is almost as your own coaching ambitions. Because it's very hard to be a bad coach if you listen to your players. So maybe I— we don't need to really push so hard if we value the people in front of us a bit more by default.

Love that. So Alex, as we wrap up here, maybe if there are any, uh, coaches in the UK listening to this in different sports, And they're considering signing up to the event, what would you say? Anything you do to swing them and, you know, share what we're going to be doing in that evening?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing is you're not alone. If you've ever wanted to try this, never really felt like you could by yourself, this is a room full of people who are there to be like, okay, I'm right here to catch you if you fall.

People often describe my coach development as like the person whispering in your ear to jump off the cliff. As I strap on the parachute. That's hopefully what that workshop feels like. If you are not sure, that is the perfect space for you because at the very least, I can't guarantee that you'll be more sure by the time you leave, but you'll probably feel a little more comfortable in that uncertainty because you know that you are not the only one and that you have a bunch of people behind you who are willing to support you.

Great stuff. So we will have the link in the show notes, the Eventbrite link to sign up, and obviously, uh, We're really excited just to meet coaches from lots of different sports backgrounds, hopefully, and it'll be a really exciting evening. Alex, thanks so much for joining us.

Can't wait to meet you in person in a couple of weeks.

Likewise. I'll see you there.

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