George is joined by Marianne Davies to discuss the ecological dynamics approach to coaching, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, curiosity, and creating dynamic…
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In this episode, George is joined by Marianne Davies to discuss the ecological dynamics approach to coaching, emphasizing the importance of authenticity, curiosity, and creating dynamic learning environments. She shares her journey in coaching, highlights the significance of representative learning, and offers practical advice for coaches to enhance their practice design and feedback mechanisms.
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Esta transcrição corresponde ao áudio original em inglês.
I want them to be successful 2/3 of the time, at least. You know, if they're successful all the time, I'm going to encourage them to, you know, do something a bit harder. The key that's really important, the same with athletes, is whatever you're doing, it has to be authentic.
So it's not a pretend to do this or pretend this is happening in the environment. It's like, keep the— you've got to keep the perception and action coupled. There isn't just one answer, and often it's just about being curious. Start something. And if that doesn't work, do something else.
You know, don't be afraid.
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transforming Basketball Podcast. Today I have Maryanne Davies. Maryanne is a senior coach developer at UK Coaching. She started off as a full-time adventure sports coach where she combined practical coaching work with her passion, for research and the theory behind the coaching.
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George is joined by Jamie Ransberry during the Transforming Summer Camp 2026 in Roseto, Italy.
George is joined by João Pacheco, a coach from Portugal who has been living and coaching in Germany for nearly 14 years.
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She is now a learning and skill acquisition specialist, and you can find her research papers online. Marianne, welcome to the show.
Thank you so much for inviting me. It's an absolute pleasure to be here, George.
So Marianne, my first question for you is, I want to know, obviously you've been involved in the ecological dynamics approach for a while, but what was your first aha moment in the practical environment?
I think it was after exploring it for quite a long time, because I first got involved, or I first came across an ecological approach in the early '90s as an undergrad because of some of the postgraduates, including Tony Oldham, Anthony Oldham, if you know him, he's in New Zealand now.
And I was completely drawn in because I read one of Kelsall's papers looking at coordination dynamics and phase transitions. And of course he was doing it in quadrupeds and horses. And I was a bit passionate about horses even back then. So that had me hooked.
But it was after reading Jane Clark's paper, I think it's in '96, somewhere around there. And so it was a few years later. It was about dynamical systems in learning. Now she, like Eleanor Gibson and people like Karen Adolph and Esther, was researching motor development.
And she was talking about how babies learn to walk. And essentially saying that there were 8 things that had— 8 different things that had to reach threshold before a baby would be able to walk independently. So they were things like postural stability, dynamic balance, effector strength, so how strong the legs were, the perceptual acuity, so being able to see things on the floor and judge whether they're going to stand on a piece of Lego or trip over a teddy bear, and stuff like that.
And she was basically saying that until each of those hit a particular threshold, then the baby wouldn't be able to walk. And, you know, the standing up, falling over, and 17 times an hour, Karen Adolph says, that babies fall over, you know, when they're learning to walk, was them learning through all this sort of like chaotic mistakes.
Yeah.
They are building those 8 capacities and coordination abilities that enable them to be able to walk. And I read this and thought, that looks just like the way the people who I coach are trying to balance in a canoe or on a surfboard, compared to the research that I was doing in motor learning, which was about sitting down in front of either a computer with a joystick or sitting in front of a key button pad and pressing buttons with different relative timing gaps between them.
And I would look at that and think, Wow, my 2-year-old can sit down and press buttons with no problem whatsoever. That can't be a novel task. This does not look like anything I coach. Whereas after I'd read that and I was just, I was watching someone trying to balance in a kayak, sorry.
And I just had this epiphany. I was like, this is motor development, not whatever it is we're learning, motor learning and motor control, you know, that connection.
It's so interesting because babies get mentioned so much on this podcast. Because it's an interesting concept how they learn to walk. We don't tell them what to do. We just kind of like change the environment for them. We'll pick them up and start them maybe in a different position.
We'll take things out of their way. It's funny. In terms of the adventure sports, the dynamic environments, you don't really have control over so many constraints, right? How do you create an environment in those dynamic settings where people can learn and they can be faced with certain affordances that they might see So, first of all, I think actually there is a lot of control over them because they are dynamic, so they're always changing.
So, I'm going to come back to that in just a minute. I think I actually find it difficult when we're on flat water and it's not dynamic, because then I have to think, oh, what can I make up? What can I do? Then I have to get my toy box out and find all sorts of stuff that I can use, you know, to create learning opportunities through using artificial constraints.
Once you're in a real dynamic environment, the problems are there for you. You don't have to make them up. What you do need to do though, is choose the environments. And most people who coach in the outdoors will know what we consider the good environments.
And they'll be ones that have lots of different areas. So if you think maybe about a coastal environment, if you're familiar with the sea, there'll be somewhere where there's a little cave, you know, a little cove, and there's a bit of flat water.
And then if you go a little bit further out, there might be some waves. If you go around the headland, there might be some wind. And then if you go somewhere else, you know, maybe there's a rip or some bigger waves. So, there is this whole playground of different environments, and you can move in and out of them, you know?
So, in here, it's easier. Out there, there's this challenge over there. There's a different challenge over there. There's a different challenge. And they're real. The challenges are real. You know, you can squeeze between gaps with water. And so, actually, it's when you're on flat water and you're thinking, oh, I've turned, how am I going to—
Yeah.
turn. There's nothing to turn around. It's just like, then you've got to do things like get creative. So yeah, no, I was going to say, actually, it's really easy if you're in the right environment. Obviously, you need an environment where there's all these different, you know, things happening, different variability.
And people working outdoors quickly find out where they are, whether they're on the water or in the hills, you know, like.
And then as far as like, so putting it into a sports context, or maybe a basketball context. So you have this dynamic environment, which is the game. And then I guess for the coaches listening, if they're trying to design practice in a way where they can specify the affordances, what are some of the things that they have to consider?
Because now you're putting players in an environment where there's a lot less information and maybe to see a particular result. But what are some key things that coaches should consider when taking away all that dynamic of, to your point, that, you know, the wind, the water?
I guess it depends what it is that you want to be Developing. I can give some examples. So for one of the things that's quite hard to do for beginners, say kayaking on flat water, is to get the feel for engaging their whole body and the need to actually push off their feet.
So you don't want to use your arms because they're only little tiny muscles. You want to use your legs, your core, your lats maybe, but then, so, so you want, it wants to be a full body, so diagonals. So finding ways to add resistance.
Without it being the wind or against waves is difficult. But I mean, you can just get somebody to tow someone else or have trail something behind them. So, you know, just add resistance. And then in order to move, they need to actually power through and they can start developing those coordination patterns, you know, with the full body movement.
Because I think one of the things that's really interesting, and I'm sure this is something you're really familiar with, a lot of, there's a lot of coaches and athletes and others who think if you do something really slowly, And correctly, somehow you're creating a motor program for when you do it fast without recognizing that there'll be a phase transition and you're using completely different muscles in completely different coordination patterns once you add power and speed and things like that.
So they don't really transfer. You might, you know, sometimes I think about it, I think, okay, doing something slowly might make you a bit more confident. It might help you to pick up perceptual information, but it's not building any kind of motor program.
It's just not doing that. And it's probably not building the same. You're not using the same body parts. You're not, it's not the same coordination.
Yeah.
So there are things like that that you can do. Unfortunately, you can't do that with a horse. So I've got to be like really creative with contact. Some of these are what we could do. You know, there's a lot, you lose an awful lot of things that you can play around with.
And then other things often are about being able to perhaps stabilize or destabilize.
Can you give us an example of that in a horse? Let's say, for example, they're jumping over the hurdle, and how would you stabilize or destabilize that movement if you want to maybe get their, I guess, their front feet? I don't know what you would call their front feet up, For example.
Forelegs and hind legs. Yeah. Like you would a dog. I was thinking more the boat actually, but yeah, it's easier to do stuff with the boats. Yeah. So if I think about a way of stabilizing or destabilizing something with that, but actually this is, this does transfer to both.
So a couple of examples with boats going sideways, a lot of people find really difficult. What they tend to do is not be able to, again, twist from their feet. So they try and turn around just the top half of them, which is very difficult.
Instead of letting the hips slip. So then all their weight goes on one side, and as they try and turn, they feel really wobbly. So it's very difficult for them to paddle on one side, to go sideways without pulling back, because they're losing balance.
But if you get someone else to hold onto the side of their boat, it's like an outrigger, then they can actually move. And again, they can feel the power transfer from having to tow somebody. So you stabilize and allow them to use the same muscles.
Another really good example is things like canoeing, where you've got 2 people, like an open canoe. And if you put 2 beginners in an open canoe, it's a bit of a— it's called— they're often called divorce boats. So, people joke and say it's a divorce boat because neither individual knows why something's happening.
Is it something they did? Something the other person did? Combination of both? Neither? Because it's too chaotic. So, if you've got a beginner in something like an open boat, you want somebody who's really experienced in the other side, the front or back, stabilising the boat so that what the person who's learning is doing directly has an impact on the behaviour of the boat.
So they're getting some feedback about what they're doing. In equestrian sports, generally, the rule for that is don't put a beginner on a young horse, put a beginner on a really experienced horse that's going to stabilise what's happening and ignore things like them losing balance and wobbling and all sorts of stuff like that, because a youngster is going to respond to that.
their adaptive systems. You know, when a young horse needs a very experienced rider who, again, ignores a lot of the wobbliness and just stays stable for somewhere for them to come back to. So that would be types of examples.
And just thinking back as well to what you said about doing things really slowly and learning, it just, a thought popped into my head is like when players in basketball do form shooting, and I always ask them, oh, why are you doing this?
I go, so I can like warm up my shot or get ready so I, you know, I can feel good. I think Most of the time it's more mental than obviously physical. It's just kind of like they believe it, but obviously the science says the opposite.
So it's just an interesting thing, our belief systems and where that comes from.
Yeah, I think there's a really good thing there is, like I often think about this, well, am I doing something now specific for skill acquisition or is it more important to support motivation and confidence? And actually I always go, it's always more important to support motivation and confidence at the end of the day.
So there is a balance. Yeah.
And I think that's really fine line right there between like what you want to push the evidence, like you want to push that forward in like in the sports settings. Like, so for example, in my coaching environment, I want to make sure that we're doing rep without rep every single chance we get.
I want to make sure that I'm, you know, giving them as many movement solutions as possible or putting them in an environment where they can explore, you know, with different movement solutions. But I also want to make sure that they're having success. So that they can, at the end of practice, they can go home and be like, oh, I got better today.
I feel good. I want to go back tomorrow and do the same thing, as opposed to trying to give them a little bit too much. And then they feel like it's overwhelmed by all of that.
Yeah. One of my kind of rules of 3 is, or rule of thirds, is the first third of a coaching session is about me gathering information. But that would've started beforehand as well. You know, so I don't kind of like turn up cold if I can help it.
And nowadays we don't need to, we've got such great, we can see videos, have conversations, use WhatsApp, et cetera. That'll be about gathering information and starting to shape what's happening. The middle third will be where I'll put something in that is going to be difficult or likely to go wrong, because again, there can be high consequences.
You know, riding, people can fall off, and paddling, they could take a swim, and climbing, they can fall off and things like that. So that goes in the middle, that challenge. But again, thinking about it also being the participant's decision. So they're being supported through a supportive learning environment to push themselves and to be happy.
failing. And I don't know if you're familiar with my ugly— I can share that. So, you can see this is where it kind of like starts getting a bit unstable. It's like you want to be— that's where I want people to start to search, to want to be, to want to explore there.
And to do that, they have to know they can get back out again, especially if it gets a bit scary. But again, I'll think about, okay, I want them to be successful 2/3 of the time, at least. You know, if they're successful all the time, I'm going to encourage them to do something a bit harder.
And then the last third is more around stabilizing and making sure that they can go away and practice stuff on their own.
Yeah.
They're feeling super confident about their autonomy, confidence, and relatedness. And, you know, I'm thinking a lot more about those things and what they're going to go and do on their own when I'm not there.
Yeah.
But it's fashionable in a lot of the sports that I do for the coaches to build up to a dendo and do something big, like, oh, the biggest jump or a drop at the end. But often it terrifies, you know, like people then have an epic and it terrifies them and they're losing more and more confidence.
Exactly. I think it's interesting. That's a super interesting point. And I think especially maybe towards the start of the season, but I think it's valid throughout the whole season where— so the first part was you learn about them. So it's kind of like, what can I make them do?
How far can I push them? Then the second part is you try and like get them to fail or fail to a point where they're constantly learning. And then the last part, you stabilize it and like, okay, now that you failed and you know, here are some of the solutions that worked well for you, we're going to try and emphasize these a bit more in the last part so we can kind of stabilize and get some success out of that.
If I heard you correctly. Yeah.
It's almost like that. So like Fabian's going through that whole, but in a session that you do, you know, you're gathering information and you're looking at what's there and then you go, okay, this is the thing we're going to work on. Okay. That goes into the, however it is, but the thing you're going to work on will go into the middle third.
And it might be that sometimes we only see somebody once.
No. Yeah. I guess it's a little bit different maybe with that in the sense that now if you're coaching, you're usually coaching a team and then you see them a bit more often, but I guess it still remains, you always want people to come back.
Right. So I think this kind of helps with that. I want to talk about Fergus, right? So I watched one of your classes on your website, Dynamics Coaching, and it was an interesting slide about Fergus the horse. Actually, can you explain it? I thought it was just so interesting the way you explained that representative learning environment and the importance of it.
Ah, Fergus going to the competition. Really love to say a big shout out to Jean Abernethy first, actually. So first of all, for just being so amazing in the stuff that she does. And secondly, for giving me permission to use her Fergus cartoons in my, in So, this is, I think this is fantastic.
It's just a series, a short series of cartoons where Fergus, who's, I think he's a part Shire horse, so he does American something competition. And he's sort of hauled out of his stable early in the morning, told to hurry up, thrown hay at, and sort of like shoved into a trailer.
And he's like, what's morning? What's breakfast? Why is the hurry? Kind of thing. And you can see he's like, this isn't what normally happens. And then he's got all these panicking parents trying to tack him up and everything. And in the end, he's like, you know, you could just see him go like, I'm
Oh, something terrible must be happening. And he runs off. And then they're like, why does he always do this at a show? You know? And I just thought that was such a good example of actually what people tend to do is they practice whatever it is, the dressage test or cowboy dressage or whatever they're doing, or the jumping, but they never practice all the other bits.
The horse doesn't know that particular bit is separate to the other bits. You know, the getting up early, the being tacked, the being plaited, or having to go on a trailer and drive. Having stress put around him. And I just thought that was brilliant, that when you think about coaching for something, it's the whole event, not just the one part of performance that we often get stuck on practicing.
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And I think that was what I found so interesting about it, and it really made me reflect. So as coaches, I think the easiest constraint is the task constraint, because we can easily manipulate the size of the court or, you know, how many seconds they have to score.
But do we constrain the environment in a way that's similar to the actual real environment that they're going to face in a game, like the crowd noise, for example, you know, showing up? So we arrive 75 minutes before games, but at practice you have players coming in, you know, 15 minutes, 5 minutes before practice.
So do we prepare in a way that's similar to the game? And it really made me reflect as to maybe why players play poorly, but just in general, reflect the differences that we have in competition and in the practice environment.
Yeah. And do you know, there's still in show jumping, particularly the stuff that I've— the level, lower levels, there's very little practice of walking courses, being there early, warming up, and then just being disciplined to go and have a one round. You know, the timing, the speed across the ground, all the things that actually matter in the competition.
And not practiced. It's really quite remarkable. Different times of day, you know, people exercise the horse the same time every day often, and then they go and have a competition. It might be, I don't know, 8 o'clock in the morning, but the competition's at 11 o'clock at night or when they're tired, you know, they're not practicing fatigued.
And there's so much. There's the— I mean, that representative learning design just is such a good place to start for a coach, isn't it? It just gives you so much good space to start for free, really. Understand your sport.
Yeah, absolutely. And I think even taking nonlinear pedagogies, those 5 key design principles, and just, you know, building your practice session around them is also, you know, just a great place to not only use the CLA, but also to design an effective practice session.
So Marianne, I want to ask some of the key differences, some of the similarities. Obviously, you're a coach educator as well. So I want to ask how you maybe design environments for coaches to succeed and fail, as well as maybe the similarities and differences when you're designing environments for athletes or, you know, the horses that you work with.
Good question. Do you know, one of the hardest things I think at the moment is, so we've got coach education and coach development. So, I kind of do both, but we'll stick with coach education to start with, which is basically where we're helping a coach to pass some kind of qualification.
So, there's some external curriculum that's been written. And I think currently some of the challenges we have there are many of the sort of curriculums and the coach education training programs, I think, are overcomplicated. There's been a real push to try and make them more evidence-informed, which is brilliant.
I think what's happened is many have got a bit complicated. So, for example, you know, there's loads of stuff around constructivism versus behaviorism and satisficing and rules of thumb and cognitive overload and all sorts of things like this. And then quite often, the end of a long course, they might do a tiny bit around practice design, skill acquisition, and a tiny bit around motivation.
And it's probably my bias, but I think if you just start with those 2 and build out from there, you'll probably be in a really good place and then add those other bits as you go along. Now, I think many coaches just get paralysis of analysis, and then the really important bits are often forgotten.
They don't know what is important, what to focus on initially. The other thing that's difficult is that assessments are often not Representative. So we get back to representative practice design and representative assessment design. So they're not necessarily representative of what that coach is actually going to be doing.
And again, a lot of the sports are really trying to tackle this. So historically, many Level 2 coaches would be coaching other coaches in completely different environments, in completely different equipment. So none of the perceptual information, none of the affordances that would be available to them when they're actually coaching are available in that practice environment.
They're just rehearsing and just, it's a bit of a paint-by-numbers, do a bit of this, bit of that, a bit of, I don't know, you know, they do a bit of telling, they do a little bit of getting people to go and explore something, they do a little bit of self-check, you know, they go through some Olmsted and Athworth teaching thing, but it's just a paint-by-numbers.
It's not actually connected to anything perceiving or picking up from the people in front of them for their needs. So they're not connecting those actions to why they might be doing them.
And just to follow up on that, in terms of when you're— so the similarities maybe that you can get when you're in an environment where you're developing coaches, and then let's just say you're in an equestrian environment, what are some particular feedback that you can give a coach that you can obviously give a horse, but in a different way that you communicate it?
What are some of those similarities?
So some of the things that I try and get coaches to spend some time really understanding what they're doing. You know, so what is your sport? What does it require? What are the environments that it's in? What are the constraints that you have as a coach for you to explore?
You know, and also to become— so there's a lot about becoming more aware of what they're doing. And you can constrain those. We used to play a game called Ready, Steady, Coach, which is— I don't have a TV, but it's like from Ready, Steady, Cook, where you say, okay, you're going to coach this thing, and these are the constraints.
You can't talk, or you're this far away. I think the key that's really important, the same with athletes, Is whatever you're doing, it has to be authentic. So it's not a pretend to do this or pretend this is happening in the environment. It's that keep the— you've got to keep the perception and action coupled in those environments.
So you can adapt the environment. You know, how would you coach this if— so in paddle sports, for example, if you're in a river or somewhere, and often in many other environments, you can't hear anything. It's too noisy. So you can't shout, which is probably a good thing.
So you don't hear coaches shouting at paddlers as they're going through a rapid. But you do question coaches shouting at riders going over a jump, you know, because they can.
No, that's fascinating. It's almost like if we constrain the coaches in a way, okay, so this practice, or, you know, coaches can even constrain themselves to challenge them, challenge themselves. So in this practice, we're not going to raise our voice to the athletes.
So everything that, all our feedback, we can call them in to give them feedback. So that means that we have to be super efficient in what we say, because it's going to require them to come in. So maybe that can help us, or maybe now everything I, every piece of feedback I say, or when I I try to explain games or the activities, it has to be in under 30 seconds.
So then we're, again, just challenging coaches to be super efficient.
And you're constraining to afford again. So the idea is you're creating a boundary so they can't just maybe do what they're always doing without thinking about it, but they need to go and find some other solutions. There are a couple of other things I think that are really, really important.
But from my perspective, from one of them is a lot of coaches then think, oh, I've got to change everything at the same time, which is hugely destabilizing. And of course, they have an incredible amount of experience and expertise. So one of the things I really, really important is to help coaches find somewhere, and even if it's just like this session a week, and this particular session, we're going to do something a bit different.
And this is the session where I have permission to be learning as a coach and to be creative and explore things. Often I find that coaches don't run a warm-up. They do in the sports that I do, because that's really important. You know, you're not going to take somebody into an environment you can't get back out of without seeing them first.
Like, you could get on there and go, uh-oh, this is a really bad idea. They can't cope with it. And so we're really used to always doing the warm-up and always paying attention. Not dictating. What do I see when I'm watching? So, I think maybe if there are places as well where normally it's seen as not really the coaching bit that you could get away with being more creative.
So, find somewhere where it's safe for you to explore your coaching a bit more. That's really, really important. And just choose somewhere to do something, leave everything else the same, you know, and choose somewhere and slowly Explore and build on your coaching practice.
I think the other thing as well is, you know, we've got some great IT now. I often get, you know, I ask people to mic themselves up when they're coaching, go and listen to it, like do it and do a think aloud while they're watching stuff.
Pay attention to the language, what they're using, where are they paying attention? You know, if they're constantly telling somebody to do stuff, I don't know, with their body parts and internal focus of attention, what does that say about where they're focusing rather than externally?
So, Yeah, things like that.
Super practical. I think that you can apply right away. And I think maybe sometimes, I know for me it was this, it was like, I have to maybe stick to the script a little bit more. So I couldn't experiment as much as I would've liked.
But then to your point, just having that one session a week where it's agreed with maybe your boss where, okay, so this session, I'm obviously, I'm gonna focus on the athlete, but this session is more for me so I can try out some new things.
I can experiment. And this is going to make me a better coach, which in the long term is going to help everybody. And again, to your— to recording the session, it's such a low-hanging fruit. Get a tripod, put your phone on there, maybe buy the mics, and then you can really see your body language, see how you talk to the athletes, how long you talk for, what your time on task is during practice.
Maryanne, I know obviously those 2 are great. They're fantastic. And there's a lot there. Any other practical advice that coaches can implement maybe in their next practice?
I think, depending on what they're doing already, again, trying to have stuff where they get the athletes more engaged in doing the decision-making and stuff like that. So that co-coaching, well, one bit of advice would always be co-coach, find someone else. You know, if you've got an assistant, use them as a coach, you know, have those conversations, don't coach in isolation.
So the other one would be try and get the, you know, like, think who's, is it Rob Grayson, whoever's doing the decision-making is doing the learning. So if you're the one as a coach who's doing all the decision-making, then That's kind of not good for the learning of the people you're working with.
So how do you— again, it's like that negotiating and renegotiating, just little bits can be just small bits. And how do you slowly pass over the decision-making for some of the things that happen in the session from you to the athletes during a session?
In some places it's easy. So when I used to take beginners, especially kids out, and we'd have half a day to do something, I don't know, like an intro to paddling. So those type of things are really easy in some ways. So these are complete beginners, and I always used to think they're going to be in my session at the beginning, but I want to be playing in their session at the end.
So like, how do I start to pass over decision-making to the people I'm working with during that session? And it only has to be small bits. Yeah.
And I guess the challenge would be, or maybe to play devil's advocate, the challenge would be like, oh, if I give them too much freedom at the beginning, then I don't have control of the session. So, you know, what do you say to that?
Yeah, definitely. I used to coach gymnastics. I remember the very first session I coached kids in gymnastics. I'd just like sent them all off to go and warm up or something. I can't remember. All I could remember is I couldn't get them back again.
I learned that lesson really quickly. I just like spent, it felt like half an hour herding cats and these children climbing up, you know, like ropes and all sorts of things. So that was a really bad idea. So start constrained and then slowly let, you know, slowly release the boundaries.
Yeah, I learned that the hard way. Don't do that. It was a good job I wasn't on water and it was just the gymnasium, but could have been worse.
Maryanne, thank you so much for your time. I think in every, I've listened to other podcasts that you've been in, and I think in everything I've listened to or read, It's— you always mention like different research papers, you mentioned different people, so it really shows how passionate you are about not only skill acquisition and ecological dynamics, but just, you know, being in this space.
It really shines through. So thank you for that. My last question for you, the transformative tip. I know you've given us a lot of practical things, a lot of practical advice for coaches to take away already, but if you could leave coaches with one piece of advice that could really transform their learning environment going forward, what would that be?
I think it is to recognize there isn't just one answer. I've seen coaches observing something and thinking, ah, what is it that the thing that they need that I need to give them? And so I think the best bit of advice we could give is there isn't just one answer.
And often it's just about being curious, start something. And if that doesn't work, do something else. You know, don't be afraid to go, okay, this is not working the way I thought it was. Let's try something else. I think, you know, when I started saying in my coach education, bear with me, I'm just going to experiment.
Actually, that was transformative to the people I was working with. They're like, what, you don't know what's going to happen? I'm like, of course not. I haven't had a go yet, you know, but I think this might happen. If it doesn't, we'll have to do something else.
So I think that's it, to be kind, find a space you can explore, and don't be afraid to have a go. Might not turn out the way it did last time as well. So I know, I know I probably should just have one.
The bit that's really important to this, the other bit of this is really important, is stay in the moment. What is happening in front of you? Yeah. Not what you planned, what you thought would happen, what you wanted to happen. Be completely in that moment.
I think that's the most important bit, what's happening in front, and be responsive to that as a coach. And don't be afraid to try something different.
Thank you so much, Marianne.
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me here.
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