Bayer Giants Leverkusen's Secret Weapon: Ecological Dynamics with Felix Engel

This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast, and I'm your host, Alex Sarama. This is the podcast where we help coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to create the ultimate resource to help make sense of how contemporary skill acquisition ideas can be applied within the basketball world.

Throughout the podcast, we'll unpack how an ecological dynamics framework alters our perspective If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome back to the podcast, Felix Engel. It's, uh, great to have you with us today.

We had the pleasure of meeting just over a month ago in England at the Transforming Live Clinic, so big thanks for joining us on the podcast today.

It's an honor to be here, Alex. Thank you so much.

So just before we started recording, we said, uh, you said to me, it's just going to be like one of our conversations on the train. And, and that's exactly it. We had, you know, obviously you came for a week to see some of the stuff we were doing in London Lions and then obviously come to the coaches event too.

And every day we had the fortune of spending some good time together on the train as we were going from Stratford to Egham in Surrey and Guildford along the way too, stopping in on my hometown, on my mum and dad. We had some really, really nice conversations during the week, and we developed a great friendship.

So I wanted to get you on and just talk through a lot of the things that we discussed that week. But before we get to that, can you just share your story, where you're coaching, how you came across an ecological approach? Because you're obviously 100% in.

Yeah, I'm currently working for TSV Bayern 04 Leverkusen, which is a really, really big club in general. They have other sports. departments too, and I'm the youth coordinator and mentor for the coaches. So quite similar to what you're trying to accomplish with the London Lions, and this is also one reason I came to you.

And the first time I got in touch about the idea CLA and ecological dynamics was when I was head coach for JBBL under-16 team in Germany, because I was, I was struggling at that time, I'm going to be honest, and I was trying to copy these things where all the teams were successful, like Alba Berlin and Ratiopharm Ulm and FC Bayern Munich.

It didn't work out. And then I was like, fuck, man, there must be something else. And we only had twice a week practice, and it was a big challenge for us. So I decided to— in search for, okay, how can we do this more effective?

And we don't have an athletic coach, we don't have a physio department, we didn't have any kind of resources. So I had to do something else. And it was like, okay, we're not as athletic as the other teams, so we got to be better at playing and at shooting.

And this is why I really made a deep dive into, into all those things. And it, and it worked out quite well because we went to the Final Four that year.

Love it. So when you came, Felix, we had a few days with the Lions and you came, you joined in actually with some of our coaching workshops, and then you came to some practices too. And obviously it was great having you in on that.

What were your— any— were there any kind of really interesting takeaways just from seeing kind of what we're doing in London that resonated with you?

I think there's a big misunderstanding when I hear coaches talk about the CLA, the small-sided games, because often I feel like they misunderstand it in a way that it's like a lesser fair approach, that it's free play. And with you, I saw, and on all the other coaches too, I saw approach which was really, really consequent in terms of constraints you did.

So it was a really, really intense practice. And I think this was a big eye-opener to me, which I haven't heard on the podcast here, which I think we should make clear that coaching within a CLA, it's different than most other coaches think.

I'd see it that way.

I completely agree on that. I think a lot of coaches don't actually know yet what it is. Maybe they think they know, but it's, I think it's very much confused with a games-based approach. And we spoke about that where it's really not about the small-sided games we're playing.

Yes, of course, using a CLA, you need to obviously be using small-sided games, but it's really what is happening within that small-sided game. And I think the real secret sauce is how, as a coach, you are able to respond To what you're seeing the players doing within it and then adapting accordingly.

And it's crazy, Felix, like yesterday, even on social media, I saw a trainer sharing a story of doing 1-on-0 kind of dribbling moves. And yeah, there was some variability in there, but they were saying using the CLA to develop dribbling. And it's unfortunately, we have these huge misconceptions now as to what the CLA actually is.

And I think it's really important we clarify, just like you said, no. Actually, it's a whole different way we go about this.

Yeah. And I would even add, I always talk about it like you got to be an architect in terms of creating learning environments, but also you got to be a detective and observing what's working right now and what's not working right now in terms of what is your purpose of the constraining of the defense or offense for the result, and is it working for that or not?

And if it's not working, you got to change quickly and be open about to change quickly. And this is, I think, uh, where, where coaches, yeah, they got to be more like a detective, you know, observing and then changing and following the lead, you know.

Why isn't this working? What do I have to do to change in order to make it work, you know, for the players?

Just from your experience, going off track a bit, I think, you know, you, you started, you're doing some coach education in Germany now, and I've done some, quite a bit of stuff in Germany. I think I get actually probably some of the most messages I get from one particular country are maybe German coaches who are exploring this.

You know, why do you think, what do you think are the barriers to more coaches really understanding this and just being willing to give it a try?

Because it's new. And I think also maybe they're a little bit afraid to Because there's this misconception of they are not in charge anymore, I think. Because when you look at coaches and they they're doing this practice plans, you know, like the Americans do really efficient.

And then you always talk about this looks structured, like this looks good, you know, which is not nonlinear. So I think a lot of coaches do this because they feel secure when they have like a practice plan and. They in charge, they in control now.

So this would be the hypothesis. And if we would stand on the other side, you know, going in there with no practice plan, what happens then? You know, and then I think, yeah, it's free play and we don't have any boundaries and I'm not in charge anymore.

And this is why I think most people are afraid. So what we have to do and what the CLA is really fascinating about is then we combine then these 2 elements because it's not about controlling and it's not about free play. It's the intentional manipulation of the learning environment.

And with this intentional influence that you have as a coach, you sometimes are very clear and consequent. And within these barriers they can then play freely. So it's like a paradox, son. I don't know if that's— you know, you, you have these 2 elements combined within the CLA.

And I think a lot of coaches, they, they only think, yeah, it's free play, but actually it's quite the opposite. As a coach, you got to be— you got to be in the practice. You got to be in the moment, man. And if you're not, you, you're not able to then intentionally influence the environment that you're observing.

And this is like a craft that you really, really developed well. When I saw you at the camp situation in Eggen, the time on task the kids had was amazing. The different variations and constraints you did with the kids were amazing. And this is what coaches, I think, just need to be curious about and just try to do it within their practice.

Don't be afraid to change something.

Yeah, that was an amazing— well, firstly, thanks a lot, Felix. I think that was an amazing response, just talking about having a consequence in everything. So maybe let's shift— that's a good segment— to the Egom Camp. And I think what you said there was the time on task, and I think that's probably the biggest shock to a lot of people, just the true pace at which we're going and, and really doing things.

And it's, it's almost like every 2 minutes we're changing something. Would you say that's a fair, a fair statement?

No, no. I mean, I, I loved it, and I think the response of the kids loved it too, you know. Yeah, they got so many repetitions without that repetition. They had so many experiences to make there, you know. And what I also loved about is there were no push-ups, no suicides, nothing.

Because win— not winning the game they played within the constraints was punishment enough for them, you know. That was amazing too, because I see a lot of coaches, yeah, okay, if you don't win, you got to do this, you got to do that, you know.

And this is also like with the CLA, it's not necessary because you play every time against something, you know, against an opponent to be exact.

It was funny because when you were with me, that, that was the week the Wolfgang Schoellhorn was ranting at me on social media. Not many people listening will get the context of this, but of course Schoellhorn's the founder of differential learning. I think he's got some great ideas, but we can just say there's some controversies in the motor learning world right now as he's basically claiming that he invented the CLA.

But anyway, I think I love DL, at least my version of DL, if I understand that to be what it is. You know, we spoke about how it really helps complement shooting. Especially for players who are maybe, you know, not achieving a good kind of shooting percentage, helping them discover and allow for a new functional shooting coordination to emerge.

What are your thoughts just personally? Because I know you've done a lot of DL too. I think it's always a difficult one to say to coaches, like, because it just looks so weird, right? It really does. Have you, have you had any, you know, experience, any success using it or found ways to Maybe better explain to coaches why we're doing it.

Yeah, first of all, I want to say something to Schollhorn, you know, because the claim he made— because I listened to his podcast when he was interviewed, which was in German, and he then claimed there that coaches using the CLA are coaching it in a wrong way.

I want to make that clear that when I was in London and observing your practices in the camps you never ever said that was wrong. Because he's saying that basically when coaches think about a correct technique but doing the CLA and then trying to correct those kids within that game, I'm with him, you know.

This is, this is not the purpose because you should be creating the learning environment so purposefully that you don't have to coach them Within that game, you know, also like the language right or wrong. I don't really like that. You know, for me, it's only what's functional in the context which emerges and what's dysfunctional.

And when you saw that something was dysfunctional, then you coach, you know, this is a big difference. For example, you know, when there was a travel, when they didn't inbound the ball, like respect the game, man. Make it as representative as it can be.

You've got to go in there and then coach, you know.

Yeah.

This was my take to Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schollhörn. Yeah, yeah.

It's, you know, I think he's got a lot he could offer the motor learning world, but for me, I just don't see why. Like, the CLA is such a— it's a rigorous framework, and he's saying that it's not supported, that ecological dynamics is, is not a well-grounded framework, which it really is pretty ridiculous.

And many others in the skill acquisition world. But I think it's a shame because it's You know, I think DL could really complement the CLA, but I just don't see how, you know, it could be something like suggesting that that DL is the CLA as he's doing.

But hey, it is what it is, and I think I'm going to continue to use DL as I interpret it, which is infusing as much variability as we can in closed environments so that then players can obviously harness. you know, movements that they previously were not expressing when we go back to CLA open environment practice tasks.

In the podcast, he said something interesting because they made a study, uh, too with internal external cues, you know, which is a huge part in coaching. I think language in general, you know, the thoughts you have fuels your attitude. You know, if you think this is right, then there has to be something wrong.

There's only what's functional. And then they discovered obviously internal cues, you know, which are directly— or they're not as effective. Put it like this, it's the best trash talking actually you can do to a player as a coach if you say, yeah, do this with your wrist.

And because it's very internal. And external cues is what you're using with the brads. You know, this is a classical external cue. And they found that differential learning with external cues has the most significant learning results. So when I look at you shooting, DL, and you talk about breads and swishes, you know, which is an external cue because it's an external picture, this is really, really effective.

I love that saying, internal feedback's the best trash talking. And it's— this is the thing, you know, coaches are well-intentioned, they mean well for the most part, but, you know, they're just not aware that when we're actually going in and trying to teach all these things, it's really just at loggerheads with what we know about skill act research.

It just is, and there's no way of getting around it, you know. And again, we can't be drilling a particular technique and then creating a small-sided game where that could happen within the small-sided game. This is not what it's about. And I think it can be difficult because I see it all the time— coaches have these, they have mental models as to what they think different skills need to look like.

And I know it's very difficult to move away from that and start believing that that's not important.

Yeah, a good friend of mine, he told me, uh, the story like, yeah, everybody is waiting in queue for the new iPhone and the newest technology to come out, and still so many coaches still trying to do texting and calling with an old Nokia 3310, you know, like back in the days, 10 years ago, you know.

This is how we as players got socialized and grew up, and we still think this is the truth. we should start questioning it. And also, like, not saying this is right or wrong, but I think it's very effective and it's functional for the players and it just makes a lot of fun.

It actually leads to a really good thread I read today on Twitter by Martí Canales, who— Martí does the Fosbury Flop podcast, really great guy, basketball coach too, from Catalunya, you know, all in on an ecological approach. And he spoke about He said that, you know, if you have 20 coaches in a league, even if they're all doing traditional things, well, someone's going to be a winner anyway.

It's going to happen. And what happens within the basketball world is we look at those winners and then we hold up what they did as, look, it's proof it works. Like, they must be an effective coach. And I think what Marty said is an effective coach is, is someone ultimately it's, can you transfer the intentions of how you want your team and your players to play?

From practice to the game, right? That's, that's what it is. Can you do that and, you know, educate their intention, attention effectively so that the way they play is actually somewhat reflective of what you intend? That's an effective coach. And I think this is why we're really in the, in the impasse we are as a basketball world, because we've, you know, all these coaches over time who have obviously been reliant on the dominant approach to coaching.

Yeah.

Well, there's going to be a winner for sure.

And to put another name out there, Thomas Tuchel, like the Munich coach, soccer. When he started in Munich, I recently saw this video again. Unfortunately, it's in German, but he was in contact with Professor Dr. Wolfgang Schölland too. And he said when he took over in Mainz, he wasn't a soccer player back then.

He didn't play first Bundesliga and then was like a huge risk from the general management to put him there. And then he started training camp and he was like, man, we need desperately help because this— we are not as athletic as the other teams.

We don't have the budget. We have to do something different here. And he used the CLA. He would cut out the corners and make a different space in practice and change every single game, the roster in terms how the opponent would play. And this is how they would practice.

And he came really, really successful with this. And it took him some years, but he won the Champions League, obviously, and he's now with Bayern Munich, you know. So this shows that even in soccer they're doing this. And he said they didn't even play one single practice 11 against 11.

And there are some coaches out there, you know, using the CLA, and they are successful and it's working.

And I gotta say on this, because we spoke about it before, the You know, with hearing a lot of pro coaches when talk, you know, hearing about the stuff that I'm sharing with with transforming, they say, yeah, but they're pros. I can't do that.

And you know, I can't go into specifics of what we're doing here in Portland, but I can say it's absolutely not true. Like you definitely can do it, and that's all I'm gonna say. The players are a product of their environment, and I think they actually appreciate this stuff more.

I can I can speak from experience in Paris. Did all of this because it's, it's way more enjoyable. And I think they see that it's so much more specific than just some generic bullshit drill, um, whether that's player development, a team practice, whatever.

And I think I'd also say this, Felix, I think still in pro practices there are instances where players are going live, right? Even in Europe, in the NBA, it happens, right? Especially at the start of the season. And then in Europe, I'd say that's more in season if, if you have a a friendlier game schedule.

But it's like, instead of going live with kind of drills, which are traditional drills with live play, like, you know, like the baseline touch where everyone's in a line, or they're just playing live without specific constraints, if you're gonna do that, you might as well use the CLA and get way more practice transfer and actually lead to more skillful behaviors emerging than just, like we said at the start of this episode, just rolling the balls out and playing, which I think is— That's really the first barrier, I think, for the pro teams who are going

live in short practice segments. Just converting those to actual CLA activities would be a huge step forward.

Yeah, for sure. And I think what most coaches don't realize— we talked about this system theory, you know— I feel a lot of coaches misunderstand complex systems with complex means complicated, but it's not complicated. It's just very sensitive in terms of when you put something in there, it could have a huge impact, or if you put something big in there, it could have very low impact.

So it's very sensitive of what you put in there. And as you mentioned earlier in one of the episodes, playing without the defender and adding a defender Has a big impact. A friend of mine who's coaching in the 2nd Bundesliga here, and he called me, I think, 2 weeks ago, and he said to me, man, Felix, we're struggling with shooting 3-pointers.

And I asked him, how do you shoot in practice? Yeah, we shoot on air. And I told him, look, do contesting shooting. He called me yesterday and they made 117 points in a game and they shot really well. And all the pros were like, and the giggling in the locker room, like, this was really working, you know, even though it's pretty exhausting in practice, this seems to work, you know, in a kind of a funny, funny way, you know.

But yeah, I think this again shows, you know, if you do make a small change, it could have a huge impact.

Definitely. Last season, Felix, I did some consulting for a different NBA team. I can't mention who, but I presented the differential learning stuff. 2 coaches on the staff loved it. The rest, I'm not so sure, but two coaches loved it. And in the staff scrimmages, they were doing a lot of differential learning shooting by themselves, right?

And then in the staff scrimmages, they're they told me they texted they were shooting like crazy, and every time they made a shot, they'd yell differential. Really funny, you know how it's just people just need to be willing to try it. It's I just don't think it's that difficult to do this, but for some reason.

You know, it seems like we're taking a huge step into the unknown, but hey, that's, that's why I started this. That's why we're doing it with Transforming, to really hope that people can feel more comfortable trying these things out. So I want to finish here, Felix, and just talking about the coach development side of it, because we did the first Transforming live event, and that was where we had coaches come, where they— we went through the theory with them in a very practical, hands-on manner.

And then obviously we then stayed for the, for the camp part where they could see us actually doing it with players. Hopefully we're going to run the next one with you in Leverkusen, with your club in Germany, and bring Transforming live on the road.

But, um, it was— for me, it was a really cool format because I wanted to create kind of an event which was very different to what we see with coaching clinics where everyone's sitting down being lectured. And I think we were able to do that.

What was, what was your kind of take just on participating in that as a coach? Was it more interactive? Do you feel like that could be the future of coach development?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, to do this interactive clinic is the same with CLA, you know. You put coaches in an environment and let them figure it out, you know, and constraining them in a way. I think it's a great learning experience when you do it and try it by yourself, because a question you asked was, yeah, what was challenging right now?

And Yeah, I think a lot of times when you do something new or something different, it can be challenging. And then it's really nice to have somebody guiding you through that process, you know, asking the right terms of questions. Yeah, you know, and this is— maybe we, we have some time left to talk about questions in general in practice.

Yeah, absolutely.

Because I have the feeling that first it was really coach dominant, you know, the era, and the coach knows, and this is where we go, and, and my way or highway. And then it shifted towards, no, but we gotta ask the players and how do they feel and this and that.

And then I had the feeling that through that, the intensity was really lost. So we shifted from one thing to another. Maybe it's not about the coaches and about the players, but it's about the game.

Mm-hmm.

And asking questions is relevant, but often I see coaches ask questions And already have an answer in their mind what they want to hear and be not like a sarcastic question almost. Exactly. And what was really, really clear with you and the London Lions with having this glossary that coaches are speaking one language, one terminology, and the players know they're knowing it too.

You know, for example, when you talk about picks and screens, picks is when there's the pick and roll.

Yeah.

And screens is when there's an off-ball screen, your small little details which are very important. Not even stopped one practice by asking a question which wasn't relevant for the context it was in. It was not about how do you feel right now, what, what do you think you need, you know.

There's a co-design in terms of CLA. Okay, the next variation is on you. Go together and try to think about something. But it's not asking questions to making the players interact with— I don't know how to say this, you know, but I see a lot of coaches asking questions and then intensity gets lost.

And this is not what questioning is about.

Felix, big thanks for taking the time to join us today. I think people will definitely be hearing of you in the future through Transforming. A real pleasure getting to know you, you know, considering you as a friend now. So thanks for taking the time to jump on.

Look forward to seeing how the season goes with everyone at Leverkusen and you kind of, you know, implementing these ideas with the whole club.

Thanks for having me, Alex, and it was an honor.

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