Developing Female Hoopers with Kerri Kuzbyt (Part 1)

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Hi, and welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. I'm Adam O'Shensky.

Look at that!

I didn't even have to say it's not Alex Sarama. I think we're at that stage in the second episode where I don't have to say it's not Alex Sarama anymore. And here with Kerri Kuzbyt. Carrie, how are you today?

Oh man, fantastic! It's another day in paradise. What could I say?

I don't know if I'd associate Scotland with paradise, but I haven't. I've not been there in person. I've only seen it from across the way in Ireland. So. I'm sure it's a lot nicer than I imagined.

The rain, I love the rain. So paradise, rain. But if you could wake up and do what you want each and every day, paradise, right?

That's true. All right, you know, enough of your positivity. Okay, we get it. You're dealing with Canada and I don't want anything. Yeah, a lot tougher than me. Let's, let's not linger on this. How tall are you, Kerry? Wow.

Okay. Do you want like the actual height or the roster height?

I walk into the gym when Kerri was in high school, what's it going to say on the little pamphlet?

5'7 and 3/4.

5'7. Okay. Okay. So why basketball then? Why basketball at that height?

Why not? Really, when I was 4, it was always a ball man. My dad was my first coach. And I remember there's this picture of me that has a basketball and the basketball's taller than me. I'm barely looking over it. So I was always around it and just sport and activity.

just a healthy, active lifestyle. And then it was just seamless with how I enjoyed the environment and the things that the culture and what it kind of instilled. So I've always been active, always been in sport since 4, and have just loved it.

What about the culture of basketball sticks out? Because obviously you said you did other sports. What about basketball sticks out to you? And I'll be interested to hear what you say because I want to see if the differences in Culture as far as Canada to America is different.

Yeah, there's definitely some big ones, that's for sure. And then even if we're going to further kind of differentiate and dive into it from the male and the female game, because— and I'll even backtrack on that male and female game. It's only one game, but that gap is minimizing.

And that's something that I myself am set out to kind of instill with skill acquisition and player development and just everything about it. But to kind of go back onto that point, When I started off when I was 4, I actually didn't play any female sports or all that until I was 14.

So for my first 10 years, I was with my older brother who's 6 years older than me, my dad who was the coach until I was 14. And it was just always being around the boys, my little tomboy in me, and just playing everything.

It was soccer, it was basketball, it was tackle American football. It was everything except for Unfortunately, hockey. And coming from Canada, people are like, what? And I even said that to my parents and they said, well, we always said you could have soccer and basketball or you could just have hockey.

And the little kid obviously was like, no, I want 2 sports.

I want more.

So just because of like the price and everything and then the seasons. So I was always growing up not ever once not playing something. And so my second sport growing up was Soccer. And the reason why I gravitated actually towards basketball was it was the point in time in development.

It was 15 years old. So this is when like really started high-level elite representing like the province, AAU stuff, everything. And one summer, the provincial soccer team, the system was, hey, we're not going to set a team or a roster. We're just going to have you try out the whole summer, and the night before, we'll tell you if you're going to go on the trip or not, or if you're going to go represent Nationals, as if they never were going to make the team.

And I'm like, no, I want to try out. I want to earn my spot. I want the people that we're practicing and competing against to intentionally get better and get challenged versus Well, I don't know if I'm going to make the team. And there's fear, and then there's all this sort of stuff.

So there was all this uncertainty. And then at the same time, it was summer circuit basketball, all that. And I said, no, tryouts here are 1 week. If you get called back for a second week of hell, and if then you make that, then you make the team, and then you're training all summer 2 times a day, different type of training back then, obviously, right?

2 times a day, every day for the 3 months before you go do nationals, proper High-level elite sport, all that. So I said, no, I'm going to go there and see because if I make it, I make it. If I don't, I don't.

And then so I made it. And to this day, I'll never forget if that system and the culture of soccer and the governing body and organization was different, I could have actually leaned towards that because my soccer coach was always very accommodating with me running over to do basketball then.

Okay, we could then come over and get to this practice just 5 minutes late. And that was huge competition as well for the summer to go like represent our province and for Canada. So like I was like neck and neck like with like high up level stuff.

And so I had just a really understanding coach who still to this day talk to, my parents are really good friends with, that accepted that dual sport athlete and being able to do both at an extremely high level versus like Him easily saying, no, you could only do my sport, which is what I hear and see a lot in Canada and has grown even more where it's early specialization, not early diversification.

It's just, nope, you got to be in it for like 100%. You can't do other sports, all that. And it's actually debilitating and hampering an athlete's development. So for me, I'm super fortunate and why I'm very passionate about, hey, the basketball player in front of me is not the basketball player.

It's the athlete. It's the mover. And if you could experience different learning contexts and different learning environments, you're going to acquire skill. You're going to acquire movement and confidence and an understanding so much more efficiently that you can now apply to now the sport that you kind of want to focus a bit more on.

So yes, does the evidence and the research state you shouldn't specialize into anything until beyond the age of 15? Yeah, but then at the same time, for me to actually experience it and look back, there's a reason why I'm very passionate and strong of when I say to any female athlete that I've worked alongside with, or a male, but when they say, oh, Carrie, I can't come to train today, I have hockey.

I said, go do hockey, go do soccer. I don't flinch. I say, go do that. I'll see you this week still for our 2 or 3, but no, go play that other sport. Oh, I have a volleyball game like in school, like same time.

I'm thinking of coming to that. No, go to the volleyball game. So I'll encourage them to go and get more experience in a different learning context, in a different sport, because it's doing them so much than what they think in the moment and why they actually acquire skills so much more faster than other athletes.

So from my personal experience to, yeah, now then looking back in hindsight and then reading and diving deeper about it of like what the research supports, yeah, there's no question about it. So.

That definitely took a different turn than I thought it was gonna. Like, I imagine like the movement had a lot to do with like, obviously you said you grew up with the older brother and were always around the boys until that age group.

And then you got introduced to the girls and you were probably, I imagine you were like, why don't you guys move like this? Because I know you talk about movement. 100%.

Yeah, 100%. And it's the biggest thing that I say to any female, Adam, like where I've been in the world, in the States, in Canada, over in Europe, and I see a female Move differently. And I go up to her and I ask her 2 questions, and I'm 100% batting on this.

And the 2 questions I ask are, one, do you have an older brother? They say yes. And 2, I say, do you play with the guys? They say yeah. And yes and yes to both of them, it's no coincidence. And it's because, yeah, males in a culture and how they kind of grow up, it is a bit different than the females.

Do some females move like that? And do they exist with— like, yeah, they do, but it's a bit more scarce just because, like, boys are always out hooping, boys are always out just being a bit more exploratory and kind of, you know, a bit more territorial over things.

And like I said, those females exist, but really they're only exposed to it, like me, if you go and rock with your older brother to the park, or you're always playing with the boys at recess and And just being in that environment, right?

That's the power of what an environment could do to you and allow you to acquire, right? So when I see that female moving differently, it's not to say that you need to have an older brother to move like that or to, you know, reach the highest levels or to acquire skill.

Or do you need to be always around the boys? No, you don't. Does it Help? Yeah. Why? It's because it exposed you to a different learning environment, different learning experience, and then you were forced to just like problem solve and move and adapt to the way that they work versus, yeah, a different female environment in that sort of sense.

So when I really start to think about skill acquisition and movement and just development in general of females in the culture, I want to minimize that. I want to say like, okay, you could get that in the female game. You don't have to go outside of the culture to go get that.

So how can we bring it in? How can we instill it? Because it is in us. It's just a different culture that if we really zoom out, like not even in basketball context, but like more so evolutionary sort of things and behavior, like, yeah, females weren't always going out being physically active and, you know, All those types of things.

So I think that plays a part into it as well. So like I said, I want to say, okay, we could find that within here. We don't have to go outside the culture to then become that mover, become that adaptable problem solver. It could occur within the female culture.

And it's something that you have to poke a bit more at. You have to get that confidence out of that girl. The best thing in the world is when I see the grade 8s that I start out with and They would go hard for a foul and really get a good bucket.

And in the training session, I'd be like, and one, flex on them. And then they're all ghost-faced. Same thing out here in Scotland. I was like, you let them know. You don't really hear that from a lot of females coming through, right?

Mm-hmm.

So instilling that, no, that's okay, that could be normalized in the girl game as well. And that's why I love seeing it in the WNBA, in the NCAA, just that That confidence, that unapologetic confidence that you gotta have. Because if you don't, like, the other competitor's just gonna smell it, right?

So it's allowing them just to be okay with, yeah, you could act like that. So like I said, it's, it's that culture. It's the difference. It's the same thing with Canadians and Americans in that basketball sort of sense. It's, it's just treated a little differently.

And once again, it just goes to the power of the environment and how. You adapt and you grow up into it. And if you don't go outside of that environment, that's all you know, right?

Yeah, I think that is definitely a big part. I want to stick with like, because competition keeps coming up over and over again in this conversation. And I'm curious, like, what does it look like in like a female practice? Because I'll be straight, like, I'm hopefully going to be in an environment very soon where I'm going to be in that female environment.

And I'm curious, like, it seems from the outside that girls are brought up in a culture much more That's in the hierarchy. It's about being social. It's about connecting well, and that's how you get status. Whereas males, it tends to be through competition and through that playful stuff.

So like, I know in our practices, yeah, your actual goal is to dominate the other people around you. That's how you gain status. So what is it like? How is that looked at? Like, if— like, I'm sure I'll just let you go with that.

Like, so take me into practice and how that hierarchy works.

I will even say something that I do mention. And yeah, this is coming from me just because I think it— not I think, it is. It's a fact and it's a truth. I'm real. Where if I started playing basketball or sports right from the get-go as a female, I wouldn't be the player and person I am.

Because it goes to that kind of competitiveness. You got to hold your own with your older brother. You got to hold your own with the boys. If not, you're always sitting down and all that. And once again, bigger context-wise, Females are a lot more caring and wanting to look out for one another.

It's just innately evolutionary instilled in the females. That's my point of view. Whether somebody wants to agree with it or not, that's totally fine, but that's my perspective of it. And really, competition-wise, that kind of competition, the one that you're describing with the males, Does exist in females.

However, it's so much more scarce. So for example, like in university, I could get after my really good friend and even like others around us who they also like played with boys. And she had an older brother. She didn't play with boys, but she had an older brother and we'd go after it.

Like there was a point where like we were in a shoving match and then 5 minutes later, down in the team room, it's as if nothing ever happened. But we got after one another like guys would. But it comes to, I think, just the person.

So everyone's individually brought up, how they're raised and who they surround themselves with. So they're bringing that a part of them. But in general, what I have seen, and even like assistant coaching or like, you know, being a player, maybe helping out with your former like high school team or coaches and Just like observing, you know, that culture and what it is.

And yeah, it 100% is— you put it really nicely. You gain status through kind of that relatableness and social aspect versus males, you gain status by how? Competition and survival of the fittest. So once again, like we're going to zoom out and think like evolutionary kind of sense and practicality in human behavior.

But like, if you walk into probably a WNBA practice or a Division 1, like South Carolina, LSU female practice, even the Canadian Division 1 teams in Canada, I could also name like the University of Saskatchewan and all that. Like they have male practice players, all that.

They're going after one another. And I think it's just, it comes to a point of, again, a common theme of the environment and how you were raised and who you surrounded yourself with in acquiring and just like becoming made and finding yourself within that, that developed those kind of characteristics or traits within you.

But in general, I'm so glad I didn't start off with the girls because it is just that. It's, are you okay? Oh, it's social. And no, like, I want to, I want to compete. I want to go after it. So it does exist.

You find it in the pockets. But for me, it's the overall culture of it's It's okay to act like this. Female, young little girl, it's okay to let your competition know you own them. Like, nothing is cooler to see a young female so confident and just so competitive.

Healthy competition. And that's where it goes to, yeah, let's eliminate male and female. Like, everyone out there is a mover. Everyone out there is an athlete.

Yeah.

Athlete. You're playing the exact same game. So why do you have to act differently? Yes. Are there differences? Yes. Are there physical differences and capabilities? Absolutely. Okay. That's inevitable. But you know how you approach the game and mentally, like, competitors are competitors. So in general though, yeah, it's a lot of social.

It's, oh, are you okay? It's a lot more like personal or chatty versus like guys, they just like Go and throw a fist and then it's done. So it's like the behind the scenes stuff that like, even when I was coaching a few teams or just like the training groups and the athletes, I said, hey, like settle it face to face.

If you don't like wait until training's over, deal with it, but don't bring that into here. So settle it and let's go. And it's just cutting that fluff. Don't need that. So yeah, that's something like with the younger culture, I really express to for the females, go, go be a killer.

I've always said that, go be a killer, and it's okay. And then yeah.

I guess outside of like that, that immediately leads me into like the next question, which was I wanted to center around like, so I think in evolution, yes, there's obviously going to be limitations evolutionary, like how we can actually adapt that competitive aspect and imbue it into the female game.

But we're also like, we're always setting an environment as coaches, as an organization as a whole, like, like what kind of value, what are we actually valuing? And we do that through, you know, praise and through how we design our activities and whatnot.

So you just talked about there, like how you explicitly talk about, no, no, like you gave certain situations where you're like, no, let's actually settle this right here, right now. Let's not, you know, you said cut the fluff. Does the fact that you want to like inspire a little bit more competition and that girls may be a little bit hesitant towards that, how does that shape how you design activities and just like

other aspects of the culture you, you, you set up when you're walking into a gym?

Yeah, I think the, the biggest thing that I communicate is I want to establish an environment that allows for a culture of error to occur, but one to safely be explored. So what I mean by that is setting it up so that it is challenging, because if it isn't challenging, you're not going to develop, you're not going to learn.

So part one is setting the environment to the point where There's a lot of problems that need to be solved. You're not going to have the solution right away and you got to figure it out and you're going to get challenged and you're going to get frustrated with it.

But within that, now you're going to start to compete with one another and learn from one another. And if you could start to embrace healthy competition and somebody maybe being a little bit better than you right now currently, and reframing it as, okay, this is allowing me to learn this much quicker at a faster rate.

It's allowing me to then maybe acquire something, whether it's the mentality and the confidence or seeing an opportunity. And that's the beauty of training with another individual is that you can learn from their behaviors and the opportunities that you now get because of how they were behaving.

And so it just goes back to like sport in general, your competitors, you go there, you compete. No one ever walks into the gym and says, hey, I'm going to lose today. No, you walk in and you want to seek that challenge. You want to have, whether people admit it or not, they want to have that failure.

And experiencing that failure and those problems are where also those solutions lie. And so when I come in to set an environment and set like a training and design it as a practitioner, it's doing just that. I want you to experience manageable frustration.

I want you to go after one another and compete. It's healthy because you're both helping one another learn and acquire new things that you maybe couldn't on your own. But because you have somebody else here pushing you and discovering and, and really forcing you to become creative, now you're starting to really acquire skill and develop at that faster rate.

And so if I could communicate to them, hey, it's gonna be messy. We don't know how you're going to respond to it. We don't know how your body's going to pick it up right away. You may get it like this, you may not.

But if we could continue to show up and challenge ourselves and continue to explore alongside somebody else and continue to search for those problems and solve them, now we're starting to get that, oh, I crave this competition. I actually want to seek it out.

I want to go and find failure because Hey, that's where, okay, my development, that's where my answer is.

Wow. So—

I want the athletes to fail. I really do. And when I always say to them and I'm applauding, like they're missing and everything, like they're thinking, is she being like sarcastic? Like, 'cause like when they miss, I'm like, hell yeah, like good rep.

And then they miss again. I'm like, oh yeah. And that's how my player development coach was always, shout out to Matt Dick. He'd be like, oh yeah, carry it. And I'm like, frick, man, like it just freaking missed. What do you mean? And at that time I did, I just didn't understand.

But it's, it's about the decision. It's about the action, like trying to find that action, not repeating it. We want to, you know, repeat, yes, the outcome, but eventually the outcome will come about if we could start to encourage the decisions behind it and the exploratory behaviors that we're engaging in.

So that we could repeat that. Remember, we don't want to repeat the same action and be comfortable, and we can only do it this one way. We want to repeat the outcome. Well, how do we repeat the outcome? Through exploring all these different types of things and frustrations and, oh, okay, that doesn't work for me, or, oh, oh yeah, that didn't work.

Oh yeah, this worked a little bit better. So I encourage those misses and I allow them to start to reframe it of it's teaching you something. It's telling you something, not me, and it's communicating to you how you're going to develop and how you're actually going to get what you need to get.

So I, I'm very, very happy when I see them struggle and when I see them get frustrated, but I remind them we have to look at it a different way. What you see as struggle and failure, I see as problem solving and solutions just around the corner.

And that's what it is. Like, when you just said that, it just hit me that I make this error myself when I'm coaching, especially when it's like, I'm, say I'm rebounding for players or something like that. And I can see they're getting frustrated as obviously they're not getting the results they want with misses.

And instead of saying, that's okay, that's, I gotta be better than that. I truly have to be better than that. I have to encourage them. 'Cause what are we trying to— this is all learning. Stop. It's, it's not either or.

It's not black and white. Nothing's black and white.

Get them to pay attention to what— because they're gaining information there if they're actually able to attune to it. If we can point them in the right direction, all right, what does that shot tell you? That's good. I'm glad you're shooting. Otherwise, we wouldn't gain this information.

Yeah, we need to encourage that attunement as much as possible. Why? Because it's allowing them to gain that confidence and that, that sense of autonomy where now they could become so much more resilient and robust. And you don't need to look over to mom or dad in the stands.

Well, what do I do? Look over to coach. What do I do? Like, No, if we could encourage, hey, that rep just told you something, or hey, what did this do? Oh, how did you feel? What are you going to do now because you felt like that?

Okay, go ahead and try it. And when I'm having that conversation with the athlete, and that's the biggest thing, like it's not a one-way line of communication. It's not telling and them like listening. I always say like, just go have a conversation with them.

And so I always want to have as many interactions as much as we want to within the environment, like skill acquisition-wise, we're always seeking out interactions. We need to seek out that interaction verbally and those conversations because it's allowing us not only to gain information about them and where they're at, but it's allowing them to hear themselves and hear themselves out loud describe, oh, I didn't shoot like it was yesterday.

I was watching a girl, and like it was a catch and shoot, and she turns around to me, and she and like the ball literally could have like put a hole in the backboard. Like we went like, and she turns around to me, and she's like, oh, first of all, her face is like she missed it.

She's like, oh, and then her next thing was she told me. She's like, ah, I went out, and I'm like, okay, and what made you tell like? What made you grab that information? Like, the ball just like hit so hard. I said, okay, now how are you going to resolve that?

I just have to get under it. I have to shoot up. I'm like, okay, you got the next rep. She did all of that. So more so as trainers and coaches and practitioners, if you could set up the environment and you could give them that autonomy and allow them to discover on their own, you could have an interaction with that where I didn't coach her in that.

She coached herself. And why? Because I just simply previous to just guided them and attuned them to, hey, if the ball— and watch the height of it— if it goes high, then that tells you something. If you overshoot it, it tells you something.

And allowing them to now associate like the good misses or like why did it miss, they now start to problem solve in here and then they start to adapt and then now they start to self-correct. And find out what's best for them. And that's how they just then start to naturally organize in those ways that functionally gets them that solution.

So I love those moments where I turn to them and they're already telling me what went wrong, how are they going to do it? And in my head I'm like, okay, I think I set this up pretty well. And then that allows me to grab information of, okay, I need to continue to design it in this way.

So that they're allowed to get that information they need. But we have to attune them and we have to guide them in that aspect explicitly, and then they implicitly will do it themselves.

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