What Basketball Coaches Can Learn from Soccer's Evolution with Simon Schröttle

You just have to let them play sometimes. This is how I think. This is, I think, how the players improve at what they're already good at. If you use constraints, they improve at what they're not so good at yet. That's the difference I make.

I mean, my sessions were a lot of just random games, you know, without any intent, and that definitely changed. But every time the players won the ball in a three against four defending, like pressing defense, not sitting back, actually pressing defending, the players learned so much about defending because they have to leave one player open.

Welcome to another episode of the Transforming Basketball Podcast. Today on the show, we have Simon Schröttl. I hope I got that right, Simon. Simon has his own soccer academy, Simon Schüttler Fußballakademie, in Germany. He's a player and a coach in the Bundesliga for FC Augsburg, and he is one of the leading experts in the CLA in soccer, right?

Simon recently wrote his first of 3-part book, Revolution in Soccer: The Perfect Practice, and we're going to talk about the book and also how he aligns his practice principles to create the quote unquote perfect practice. So Simon, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me.

So Simon, let's start with the book. How did you start writing that? What made you want to write The Revolution in Soccer? And what made you get into— interested in the CLA? Where did you see the importance of that?

You know, I've always been thinking about how to design practice, what to do in practice, what is good, what is better, how to optimize practice, all that kind of stuff. And I've been reading a lot. I've been watching a lot of videos and all that kind of stuff, you know, that you do.

And then at some point I came across a video of Rob Gray and I bought his first book, which was How We Learn to Move. And I was actually amazed by it and really started integrating some of that stuff into my practice. And yeah, I've always been very interested in making things better and especially my own practice.

And that's why I was always into optimizing it. And since I don't want the practice sessions to improve overall, not only mine, I decided to write a book about it. So that's the story about it.

And how has that been in your practice environments after you obviously read Rob Gray's book and started applying? How did your players take it? How was it for you as well? Let's start with your players first, and then we'll talk about how the challenges that you had with it.

You know, honestly, I think that my practices before reading the book were not that different. It was just that I didn't have the theoretical framework for it, but I was doing it anyways. I think that's what a lot of coaches who use the CLA do, that they're not— I mean, some obviously are aware of it and they really act according to it.

I wasn't aware that I was doing it, but I was still doing it. So I wouldn't say that there was a big difference from before and after, but having this theoretical framework of the CLA Just gave me the opportunity to work out more boundaries and to kick out stuff I was doing before, which I was saying, oh, if they do, I don't know, a passing drill and it's only 2 persons, then they have a lot of repetitions, you know.

So I was doing it because I said, okay, it's better to do it with 2 persons than with 6 persons. So I was missing the theoretical framework behind it, but I was like kind of like justifying it by saying, oh, but they get a lot of repetitions.

So now fast forward, it's more about repetition without repetition, if I heard that correctly?

Yeah, sure. Because I was doing stuff like this for the warm-up, for example. I was, for a long time, I was, I would say, like a CLA-based practice without knowing it, with like a traditional warm-up, technical warm-up, that kind of stuff. Just, I don't know, 10 minutes, because I was saying, oh, I want to give them the touches, all that kind of stuff, you know.

That was, I don't know where, I guess where I started. And before reading and all that kind of stuff, and before getting deeper into it, And once I realized that there's another way, I kind of switched that up too. But I have to say that I haven't switched it up completely.

So I still think there is reason to do some isolated stuff every now and then because now we're going straight into my sport. In soccer, there's just certain techniques that don't happen a lot in small-sided games. For example, a long ball over 50 meters just doesn't happen in a small-sided game.

So I think At certain ages you can do it, but only like with a little practice time.

So just to put you on the spot a little bit with that long ball, I'm not too familiar with soccer. I'm Brazilian, so every time I say that people want to come for my head. But for the long ball, that 50-meter long ball, how would you like— so if you're doing it, let's say, without the CLA, and then to put you on the spot, what could you create a game like right here just off the top of your head to perhaps add a little bit of variability for that long ball?

Obviously I've done both. I've thought about that. So let's start with like the most basic exercise. So you have player 1, player 2, 40 meters apart depending on the age of the players— 30, 40, 50— and they just keep playing long balls. You can make a challenge or a game out of it that you say team 1 plays against team 2, who has more passes without the ball touching the floor, kind of stuff like this.

Then you can add some CLA. So you can, for example, say you put a goal in between the 2, so they have this external focus of attention. So they have to hit the ball over the goal already, which you can also make into a game.

But I guess it's still isolated. For me, that's isolated. You just have that external focus of attention. When I make a game, I do the following. I set up a playing field which is rather big, and I give them one neutral player. So for example, I would play 2 against 2 plus one neutral player.

In a very big field and with 2 goals, 10, 15 meters on each side outside of the field. Okay. And then the task for the players is to play a long ball because the goals are obviously empty and they have to play a long ball into the net.

If they hit the net, so if the ball doesn't touch the ground, if they hit the net, it's a goal. And I give it to like more neutral players or a numerical advantage so that I don't have like any duels. They can just pass it and then hit it.

So they have to play like long balls under pressure. That's basically it. Okay.

Love it. That's quite variable, I guess, because they have to read and then act upon what's happening, right? And obviously trying to hit the goal. It makes me think of like the kick-ahead pass in basketball. Like you see, obviously, like Luka Dončić when he grabs a rebound and then he kicks it ahead to LeBron, you know, you see those cool highlights.

But you have other players like Kevin Love that can really outlet the ball the full length of the court. And it makes me think about like what, how to design a game at practice where Let's say there's a coach or a player shoots and another player grabs the rebound.

As soon as the ball comes off the rim, maybe there's 2 players standing at the 3-point line. Maybe defense is slightly behind or at the same line of the offensive player, but then they take off at the same time. And then the player that rebounds has to catch and kick ahead the full length of the court, similar to the game that you've kind of described that I was just thinking about on my head as well.

I actually, talking about that, I think that the term small-sided games is a little misleading. Maybe the English term is a little better because it's actually small-sided. But the thing is, which means sided, so on each side team-wise, because in Germany we always say small games, which always kind of implies that the playing area is small.

And I think a huge problem in all sports or soccer and basketball is That we practice too often in too small of spaces. So let's say we play 3v3, which is good, but then we only limit the players to like a very short playing area, which is obviously representative of the game, but it's not representative of transitions.

So the exact same that you just talked about, like why not play 3v3 full court, 10 seconds and then break, just play. But I'm telling you, I don't know if you guys do it. I do it sometimes. You get weird looks.

Yeah. And I think that that's the point as well, right? To get that variability. The first time I ever seen that was actually Alex. He did it. We had the low number of practice last year and he did 2-on-2 full court. And I was like, this is a madness.

Like the players are so tired. But I was like, this is genius because it, one, you can control the players, their, how tired they are. So their load management. And then also, like you said, you get more different, they perceive different actions. So they have to act upon what they act in that full, the bigger space, right?

Yes. And actually, there's one very important rule in basketball that I really took over in my practice, which is the shot clock. Because basically you get the players to do something which is very, very useful and which you, like in soccer, you cannot urge the players to counterattack because, I mean, there's no shot clock.

They can just win the ball and just keep it and do nothing. But if you tell them you have 5 seconds after winning the ball to finish, well, you have your counterattack, you have a transition offense, which is very easy. You don't have to say anything.

Well, you can give them some hints, tell them, okay, I always, for example, say pass before dribble because the ball is just faster than the dribbling player, stuff like that. But it's so simple if you look into different sports to take out the best things from each sport and to incorporate them into your sport to make an amazing practice.

That's a great piece of feedback right there. Take what's best from each sport and add into your sport. That's something I love to do is in the warmups, just play different sports. So with the research in the revolution in soccer, how did that influence the way you approach practice design?

Hey coach, are you tired of running the same old small-sided games and wondering why your team isn't reaching their full potential? Our community of like-minded coaches are dedicated to transforming basketball principles. Gain access to 20% off all Transforming PDFs, clinics, workshops, and courses.

Join hundreds of coaches who are already part of the Transforming movement. Whether you're dealing with zone offense, tryouts, or managing parents, we've got you covered. Access our game-changing community via transformingbball.com. Join us in transforming how the game is coached.

I would say you get kind of really picky because you design a game or you actually, you carry it out, you do it in practice and you be like, no, no, it wasn't it. It wasn't exactly what I wanted. Or there's a step missing.

You get really picky, you know, because before that you just play random games. I would say you just play for the sake of playing, which I think is fine too at times. But I'm not talking about like in soccer, you have a lot of possession games.

I don't know if you're into soccer.

I know a little bit. I know a little bit.

Yeah. That rondo stuff and all that kind of stuff, which has like no purpose. The players are just forced to keep possession. They are not encouraged to dribble. They're not encouraged to shoot. There's no goal. There's no nothing. And I think those games, I mean, they're games at least, so they're not that bad, but they're worse than other games.

They make up a huge part of a lot of sessions. So were mine. I mean, my sessions were a lot of just random games, you know, without any intent. And that definitely changed. So now I'm thinking, okay, I want to do possession, but that means, okay, I keep everything the game has the same.

There are 2 goals, they are equal numbers most of the time, everything stays the same. I always think, do we need offside? Do we not need offside? This is something I always have to think about when designing my sessions or my games. But yeah, the key components of the game always stay there.

So what I heard you say there, like something that really kind of change your coaching approach was intentionality. So now it's all about what are we trying to accomplish this season and what games can help us do this. So with every practice design or every session that you do, it's kind of like, is this leading to the intentions that we want to obviously have as the season goes on?

But also for that particular session, is this warmup gonna help us with what we're trying to accomplish in the games at practice?

Yes, absolutely. I'm just making a little exception here. When practicing with my youth team, I don't think you always need intention, because if you just let them play 4 against 4 with 2 goalkeepers, you're fine. I mean, this has to be part of the game, because what I think this is also, there are a lot of constraints for the players just from the way the game is, like opponents, just field size, all that kind of stuff.

Those are constraints already, and you just have to let them play sometimes. This is how I think. This is, I think, how the players improve at what they're already good at. If you use constraints, they improve at what they're not so good at yet.

That's the difference I make.

Right. And I know from the previous podcast that you were on, the Pitchside Perspective podcast, you spoke about having under-12s, right? So let's be very clear here. Under-12s, it's better to have no coach than to have a coach that perhaps limits them too much.

Can you just elaborate on that?

Yeah, this is actually a quote from Arsène Wenger, who used to be the Arsenal coach for a long time. So I think when kids are under-12s, they are just— they have so many things they have to learn. You learn by making mistakes. I mean, everybody knows when you see a kid that's just learning to walk, ride a bike, speaking, all that kind of stuff, you imitate, you make mistakes, you try, and you just stay involved.

I think staying involved is the major ingredient for learning. And so I think the important thing is to just keep them involved, to just have them come back to practice, to tell them, hey, Mom, I don't want to go on holidays. I want to go to practice.

You know, that's your goal as a coach, obviously. But in that all the time, but obviously in that age group more than ever, because that's when they improve the most. And when you just let them play for the major part of the practice, they will learn so many things just by themselves.

And then you obviously can make changes. You can make subtle changes as a coach. You can vary the field size. You can. I also think very interesting thing that the geometric shape of the field is actually, I haven't used it a lot either, or it's still underused by me.

It's, I should do it more. There's so many things you can do to move into certain directions. And when they grow up like this, you can slowly start with the constraints. You can do simple constraints to start with, get them used to it, maybe get them to think of their own constraints at the beginning, because you can learn something from them as well.

It's not only that the coach can teach the players, also the players can teach the coach.

I remember it made me think about, we did something, it was a 3-on-3 half court, and there would be a coach with his arms out and the coach would move around. But basically the players could only play in front of the coach, right?

So that obviously like every possession or every time the coach moved, the players would have a different space that they could play in. So they'd have to obviously find different solutions for that space, but they would just have to like see the game and kind of keep their eyes up, always looking up, as opposed to if they're dribbling, you know, they're looking at the ball.

And I thought it was a super interesting practice just because it was so different for them.

That's actually a very good point. I was thinking about, or had a discussion like a week ago, about technology in sports and how technology can help in sports. So I think adjustable sidelines are a very interesting thing. When you— I don't know how to do it, maybe with like some bands or some robots, I don't know, but Having like sidelines that you can adjust on, like by pointing and pushing a button, would be a very interesting thing to put huge problems for the players.

So pivoting now, practice structure. Do you do the same things at practice in terms of how you structure it? What does your practice look like from the structure, the warm-up, the games? Can you share some of that with us?

I would say my practice is pretty structured in my head. But not for the players. And I can also freestyle, obviously, but I try to, because I worked out for me the perfect approach. Since I had the perfect practice, I also needed the perfect structure.

And basically what I do is I mostly have 4 parts. Normally our practice sessions are 90 to 120 minutes. I think shorter than 90 normally doesn't make sense unless we're talking— I always take professional soccer as an exception because they just have unlimited time and all that kind of stuff I'm talking about.

The normal, like, kids that go to school or adults that have jobs, you know. So it's 90 to 120 minutes, and I normally have 4 to 5 parts. So part 1 is the warm-up, even though I'm not 100% sure about that one yet, to be honest.

I sometimes still do a traditional warm-up just because the players are used to it.

They like it, right?

Especially adult players. Like, you cannot say, okay, let's play basketball, and then, like, you guys are warm. They say, we should stretch.

And just to cut you off, sorry, I just wanted to add, we had a conversation the other day, and It was like sometimes working with the CLA and like selling some of these warmup games, it's almost like you have to package the warmup games in a way for them to like it.

Because to your point, it's just, they're not, you know, so familiar with it. They want to do what's comfortable and, you know, maybe gets them mentally focused for the game.

Yeah. And I mean, honestly, like if you have some kind of dynamic stretching as a warmup and then have some lunges and all that kind of stuff, that's fine, you know. I, I mean, I don't care. Like, it's— I just make sure that it's not— it's short.

I sometimes get a player to do it. I don't care as long as they feel good, it's fine. Because I guess that's what the warm-up is about. It should be short and the players should feel ready afterwards.

Yeah.

So yeah, I don't really care. And then I want to start with high intensity into practice. And sometimes I think I can sell it better when I say, okay, get warm properly and do like jog and do those skipping high knees and all that kind of stuff.

So yeah, whatever. And then basically part 1 of my sessions is, it can vary, it can either be a game obviously with a focus on not too much intensity. So it's mostly with a neutral player, it's more about combinations, about combining, about passing, that kind of stuff.

Then I normally split up into 2 groups with one field is on full-size goals, one field is on those mini goals. I don't know if you're familiar with them. And then At the end, we have mostly, we have a free game where I just let them play because they obviously come to practice because they want to play.

So I always finish every session with a free game.

So you start with the warmup, obviously a different warmup. Then you go into like, I want to say like skill development almost, because you break them off into smaller groups so they get more touches with the ball.

I mean, I'm very flexible with part 1 of my session. It can be either a game, it can be technical drill. You know, as you said, skill development, which I mentioned before, it's maybe some long balls, but only like 10 minutes. It can be sprints, for example, because I honestly still think that some kind of isolated, athletical training makes sense, like jumping over hurdles, one-legged especially.

I really like one-legged stuff to prevent injuries, obviously, or also because soccer is a very one-legged dominant sport, obviously. So yeah, do that kind of stuff, but shortly, very shortly.

Sure. And then you move over to the small-sided games, and then you go for the playing. Then you play at the end because that's what the players want to do. Yep. No, amazing.

And then basically the small-sided games, when we're talking about youth soccer, which is mainly about just developing the players in general, it's like the classical constraints. Like I say, okay, I want to focus on counterattacking, transition, all that kind of stuff in small-sided games.

But obviously with my adult team, it's a little different because I have to win the game on the weekend, obviously. So it's more like a team, team game. So it actually does happen a lot that it's 8v8. 6v6, some stuff like that. So all the players that are in practice are involved because it's just how the game on the weekend is.

I'm not really developing those players a lot individually. I still do, obviously, especially on Tuesdays. It's a little different, but like Thursday and Friday sessions are more team-focused. We focus on transition as a team, on defending as a deep block, high pressing, all those tactical things.

Right. And we'll talk about that in a little bit just because that's a challenge in itself, right? Balancing. But while we're still on this topic of the practice structure, can you share some of your favorite activities? And I know we spoke about this earlier about putting you on the spot and maybe some practice activities for basketball as well.

Actually, when I watch basketball games, I think it's interesting because I don't— I'm not a basketball coach, but I really like it. So I can really give my opinion without having the deepest knowledge about it. So I think something basketball coaches should take from soccer coaches is the so-called counter-pressing or gegenpressing, which is after losing the ball, like in soccer it is, after losing the ball, you try to recover it as quickly as possible.

So you prevent the counterattack from the other team. And I think with those, with the 8-second rule in the own half in basketball, you could really trouble the other team, especially a team like OKC, which is really quick and speedy, they could, after, after not grabbing the offensive board, they could really try to close down all the closest players and keep the other team in their own half.

Not to win the ball back, because obviously that doesn't work in basketball. Maybe sometimes, but probably not. But just to prevent them from transitioning and to prevent them from having 24 seconds. You know, it just takes a lot of time off the shot clock.

And if the ball is in the hands of the wrong player, like the center or not a good ball handler, it can cause problems. So that's something I would like to see more in basketball.

And just to build on that as well. I remember, I think it was like the '99 season, the Celtics, they pressed full court. And I think they forced the most live ball turnovers. So to your point, as soon as, to be honest, I have never seen a game from the '99 season from the Celtics, but I imagine as soon as like they either turned the ball over or missed a shot or made a shot, they would press and try to do just that.

And then you have, I don't know if you've heard of like the tagging up. So as soon as the shot goes up, all the players kind of like tag up the closest player. And it's a similar concept.

Actually, I haven't heard of it. That's why I said I can't— I know basketball, but not that much.

I mean, it's not used as much. I think maybe 2, 3 teams in the NBA use it right now. Paris use it in the EuroLeague. So yeah, so you don't see many teams use it like that. 'Cause I think there is this notion of like, if you press up and try to go for the offensive rebound, you're gonna give up fast break opportunities, right?

But I don't know if that's always the case.

Hi coach, interested in taking your learning to the next level? Our Transforming products are designed to give you tangible strategies to take your coaching to the next level. Whether it's a PDF resource, in-depth clinic, workshop, or course, we have something for everyone. Our products cover everything from running tryouts, practice plan bundles, conceptual offense, game coaching, and building a championship culture.

For our podcast listeners, use the code PODCAST10 to access 10% off our entire resource library. Invest in leveling up your coaching by heading to www.transformingbball.com/products.

Well, I think, as with everything, it depends on the players you have. I mean, you don't do that when you have Dončić, Jokić, and like Kevin Love, for example. But you can do it if you have Lou Dort and those athletic players that are like just dirty defenders.

That's fun. You can do it, you know? Same thing in soccer. When you don't have the right players to play like this, you just, I don't know, transition back and just wait.

Absolutely. And so just to keep you on the spot, any other activities or anything that we can take from soccer?

Well, yes, so maybe I give a quick example of how I design it. In soccer, I would play 4v4 plus goalkeepers, and the play always starts in the opposition half. If you score a goal, you get 3 points. If the defense gets the ball and crosses the halfway line with the ball, they get a point.

If they score on the counterattack, they get 3 points. I just have to give 3 points for the regular goals, so the goals scored in the actual goals, because otherwise smart players— I've had that— They will just kick the ball out. You know, like when you give them only one goal for the regular goal, they just don't take any risks.

So they won't lose the ball because they're too scared that when they lose the ball, the other team crosses the halfway line and gets a point as well. So as a coach, you always have to think about what the players will do with your, with your game, because otherwise they will make a mess out of it, which is fine, but you have to think about it.

Players are smart.

Yes, players are smart, which is cool. I love it. And I would never say, oh, don't do that. I mean, I would say, oh, you made up the wrong rule. So yeah, that's how I would do it in soccer. So maybe in basketball, the halfway line is too big of a space.

You have to do something a little smaller. Or maybe actually I would do the halfway line. Maybe.

I think it's worth a try. I always think it's worth a try. Like, if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it does work, it's like, whoa. And it's just like players, right? We always tell players, oh, you have to be creative, take risks.

And I think as coaches, we should try to do the same thing. As well. But no, that's great.

Yeah, I think adding on that one, you have to— like, one of my most favorite drills I ever did, which was more like a defending drill similar to that one, was defending 3 against 4. And it was actually just because I was a little injured, so I couldn't play with them.

It was with the youth team, so I had 7 players left. So it was just like that because the other coach had the other players. I was like, okay, let's just give it a try. And you know, the players, they did an amazing job.

Not all the time, obviously. Sometimes it was very easy, 4 against 3, they played it out, bam. Easy goal. But every time the players won the ball in a 3 against 4 defending, like pressing defend, not sitting back, actually pressing defending, the players learned so much about defending because they have to leave one player open.

They have to close spaces, not only players. They learn so much about spaces that I think when you coach it the right way by encouraging them, by telling them, wow, that was amazing, or oh, it's completely fine, you didn't make it this time, maybe you make it next time.

They get this feeling and they learn that failure can be a very valuable part of progress, especially kids. They don't care about failing. Adults are a little tougher. They get mad, they will start swearing, all that kind of stuff. But kids just do it.

Absolutely. Going back to what we spoke about previous, the challenges with balancing skill development, team development, and also balancing like the other stakeholders that try to give their opinion. Especially when they see something that maybe doesn't look so familiar when you're doing like a, you know, a small-sided game.

How do you balance all that?

So first, I try at the beginning of the season, I try to teach the players or tell them how I train, what I do, because I think that happens once they are 13, 14. Before that, you don't have to do it. You just do whatever you think is right because they won't say anything.

It's, you have to educate the parents in that case, but not the players. I think once they're 13, 14, you should educate the players, tell them, okay, this is how we do it, this is why we do it, maybe get them involved. So I also, I always try to get them to come up with constraints, for example, so they have that feeling that they are part of the practice session.

I have those so-called, like I call them cards, which they can draw, which is the new constraint that is in the game. So I try to get them involved to get their buy-in, have them with me. And adults, you know, the problem is players are really manipulated by isolated practices, by coaches to tell them, oh, you have to take your foot at a 35-degree angle more to the right or whatever.

All that, we all know it. And the players think, oh, we have to actually practice, you know, we're not supposed to play, we're supposed to practice. And then sometimes they come up, hey, why don't we practice passing? You know, I always think I should explain it because normally the players that come up with those questions are the ones that are also open for explanations because they're already thinking about practice design and all that kind of stuff.

So just talk to them, tell them what you do, why you do it, and as soon as you have that, you're fine.

Yeah, I guess being like open about it as well while you're doing it. So the second to last question, any books, research, or anything that you have read, seen, heard That can help other coaches listening?

Well, obviously first, I guess when we're talking about the CLA, Rob Gray is the go-to name. Then I also think that Alex does a very good job. I also listen to his podcast a lot, read his book. Then obviously, well, I have to say my book since it's about a different sport.

It's actually the biggest book about constraints-led approach in soccer. Then I also think just in general, watch games, watch highlights. See how goals are being scored, how baskets are being made. Is it after one against one? Is it in a transition? What's the defense doing?

You know, just watch your sport, watch other sports, talk to other people, read studies in general. Even though I think studies are often very hard to read, just read the end, read the abstract. So just be open in general.

Awesome. Watch the game. Love that one. I feel like, you know, we always like, oh, do this, do this, because they summarize it here, summarize it there. But The game's got a lot of information too. Simon, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation, been great having you on and just learning a little bit more about you.

Last question here, if you could leave coaches with one transformative tip that could help their learning environments or their coaching approach, what would that be?

Let them play. You have a lot to win and nothing to lose.

Nice, love it. Simon, thanks again.

Thanks for having me. It was a real pleasure.

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Transforming Basketball Podcast. If you'd like to learn more about the work that we do, head to transformingbball.com to access our free resources and spread these ideas throughout the basketball world. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.

You can also connect with us on Instagram. X or YouTube with any questions that you have from the episode. See you next time on the Transforming Basketball Podcast.