How to Apply the CLA in Multiple Parts of Daily Life with Adam De Groot
Alex Sarama interviews Adam De Groot, a physical education teacher, basketball coach, and owner of Nightshade Training.
30 min
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Alex Sarama interviews Adam De Groot, a physical education teacher, basketball coach, and owner of Nightshade Training.
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In this episode, Alex Sarama interviews Adam De Groot, a physical education teacher, basketball coach, and owner of Nightshade Training. Adam shares his journey of discovering and applying an ecological approach to coaching and teaching. He discusses how he incorporates the principles of ecological dynamics into basketball practices, athletic performance training, and even his interactions with his own children. Adam emphasizes the importance of creating environments that allow athletes to discover solutions and develop their skills through self-organization.
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This transcript follows the original English audio.
This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast hosted by Alex Sarama. This is the podcast helping coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to provide the ultimate resource for making sense of applying contemporary skill acquisition ideas within basketball.
Within this podcast, Alex and his guests unpack how an ecological dynamics framework Impacts our perspective of the game. If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, this is the podcast for you.
Welcome back to the Transforming Basketball Podcast, and I'm delighted to be joined by another friend of mine in the basketball coaching space, completely committed to an ecological approach, Adam de Groot. Adam, thanks so much for joining us.
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Alex, thanks for having me on, man. Super excited to have this conversation with you and excited to share some of my thoughts.
So Adam, we first met when you hosted me more, just more than a year ago in Illinois, and I came for a great camp with your high school at Joliet Catholic Academy. And then again, obviously this past summer, we had a great few days hanging out in Vegas just before Summer League started.
And we were just, you know, sharing ideas, talking about how we're applying the CLA. So really, I think it's so interesting. The reason I want to get you on is because you have such a unique background. So could you just kind of explain what you're doing and how you're applying an ecological perspective just in, in all those things you're doing currently right now?
For sure. So currently I'm a physical education teacher at an intermediate building in Illinois. So I teach 5th and 6th graders with PE and health. I also am the head varsity coach at Julia Catholic Academy, which is where obviously we work together. I'm the head boys basketball coach there.
And I also run a training facility called Nightshade Training. I kind of do that out of my house, and I've been training athletes for about 10 years. So I think I kind of have a unique perspective on things because it's not just one specific sport.
It's kind of all-encompassing in a variety of different areas. Which kind of gives me, I guess, a unique background. And it's really kind of been able to allow me to submerge myself in the CLA and kind of continue to develop as a coach and as a teacher, but also just completely spark my creativity and take me down a direction where I honestly thought I would never be as of 2, 2 and a half years ago.
And I mean, it's amazing for me to see because you have— I know you have athletes from around Illinois who come for your training, for your athletic performance sessions. And I— you worked me out in Vegas, and one of my best memories was applying the CLA in the weight room, and we had some weird looks, but it was amazing.
And that was actually where we stumbled into, uh, JD Dubois, who obviously has been on the podcast and, and did a contribution in the book too. So you're applying the CLA in that space, obviously in all your basketball practices you're doing it, your PE lessons, and then of course you got 2 boys, Finn and Wes, who I've had a great time mucking around with.
And I just love— some of my favorite videos are you kind of showing what you're doing with them and how you're just doing different sports, playing basketball. I mean, it's just amazing to see. How did you even first come across the CLA?
So my discovery of the CLA happened during COVID and that was one of those blessings in disguise. When the world was shut down, I just had more time on my hands. I'm similar to you where I coach multiple things, middle school and high school level.
There's a lot going on in my life, so I'm usually pretty, you know, I have a pretty hectic schedule, but COVID allowed me to kind of take a breath and, and really kind of dive into this a little bit. So there was a few things going on.
One, during COVID as a PE teacher, I was getting crazy creative with stuff. You know, I mean, when you're doing PE classes with 35 to 40 kids over a Zoom call to keep them engaged and interested, I was forced to kind of do some things that I normally wouldn't have done.
And because of that, and at the same time, that was when I started diving in and talking with you about conceptual offense. So it felt like everything, looking back on it now, everything was kind of happening almost in a perfect storm where multiple opportunities were proposing themselves to me.
And that was kind of how I started diving into it a little bit. So for the P side, I was, I started taking some classes through the guys at Emergence. Which I know you guys, you know them very well. So I started diving into some of the CLA stuff there.
And really my main focus initially was basketball, you know, and applying the conceptual offense to that. But a year and a half now, 2 years, I can see how these, all these things are inter, inter, you know, connected. And it's pretty cool to see how they can line up and affect each other over a variety of different topics, sports, you know, all sorts of things.
100%. Obviously huge. I'm a huge fan of all the guys at Emergence. I recommend definitely that all coaches check their stuff out if they're not familiar already. So I think what you just alluded to, Adam, is I think for all coaches, you've got to start applying the CLA in basketball first.
That's kind of your entry point. And obviously I think at the beginning you're probably going to be more games approach-like. I think that's where we all started until we really understood the theory and we were able to apply it. And then obviously once you get that, you can apply it to other areas, whether it's athletic performance or something else.
And I think you must be one of the first high school programs. I mean, a lot of high school programs now in the States, I think, moving from a games approach to the CLA, which is great. I've had loads of conversations over the last few months, but I haven't seen many where they've applied the CLA to everything.
And that's what you're doing at Joliet, right?
That's correct. So now you look at not only is it basketball related, but I also am incorporating some of that CLA stuff into the weight room, into the stuff that we do before practice. And that has been a game changer as well. It's, it's not only fun for me in those environments, I love that environment, but the kids have been picking up on it and really, really diving into that and seeing some great results from that.
And I think that once you really take the deep dive into the CLA, you quickly find out, at least for me, I found out where it wasn't just one area where I think this could be successful at. And that's where I kind of started sprinkling in a variety of different things, obviously focusing on the basketball first.
And then it just kind of trickled over into every other aspect. And you mentioned that I have a 6-year-old and a 2-year-old and they've been my guinea pigs, right? You know, and for someone that was not necessarily skeptical of it, but that I was like, I needed to see it and see the results.
of certain things, and especially with my own boys, to see some of their development, it's been incredible. It really has. The results speak for themselves, and I think that continuing down that line, I think it's going to be beneficial for them, you know, over the, over the next several years of, of their development.
Fantastic. So for the next stretch of the podcast, Adam, I want to put you on the spot a little bit, and I want, you know, everything I'm doing with Transforming Basketball is helping practitioners apply these ideas and understand them immediately. So what I'd love to get to— this will be like a 3-part question— where I think what I want to look at is how you're using the CLA, firstly on the court, secondly athletic performance, and then thirdly with Finn and Wes.
And I want to spend quite a bit of time on that because it's, it's the question I always get: can't use the CLA with beginners. So, you know, let's start with the basketball component, and I'd love if you could just talk a little bit about some of the conceptual offense ideas you were using at the high school level, and then, you know, what this looks like in terms of some practice activities that you're using, just how you're manipulating constraints purposefully within your practices.
So last year was the first year at Julia Catholic, uh, that I was the head varsity coach. I've been on staff there for almost a decade now, but it was also the first year we went full conceptual, and that was across the program.
And it's not to say that it didn't have its hurdles. I mean, there's definitely, like, implementing any system There's definitely challenges to that. But what I found, especially with conceptual offense, is you can really build the triggers and build the offense around the strengths of the personnel that you have.
And any high school coach out there can tell you that 10, 15 years ago, at least in the United States here, if a varsity program, the top level was running something, then the bottom levels were running that. And whether that was an offense, whether it was a defense.
And what I found a little bit frustrating with that was the personnel at the younger levels was completely different. You know, so why are we trying to implement a system that realistically in 2 or 3 years we're not going to be playing? So the conceptual offense allowed me to have a base foundational teaching, but it also allowed me to play off the strengths of the personnel that I have for that specific year or that specific season.
Last year, we were able to make a nice playoff run, making it to a sectional championship game, but I had 2 kids. One was a shooting guard, dynamic shooting guard, and one was a 6'6 center that's actually playing football at Northwestern for me, Anthony Birsa.
But because of those 2 were so dynamic, we played a lot of triggers with them, you know, and the offense was kind of geared around that. Whereas this year we won't have— we'll be a little bit smaller, but our ability to shoot the basketball, I think, is going to be pretty tough.
So our triggers will be more, a little bit more focused on off-ball stuff. But bottom line is it really gives you the autonomy to create something that, you know, is going to put your players in the best position to be successful. And I think creating environments where athletes are able to discover solutions to problems that you kind of build into, you know, whether it's constraints or everywhere, that is really where the magic happens.
And that's where I'm continuing to take a step in the right direction as a coach, where being an architect and creating these things, and it goes against second nature, like I wanted to give them The answer all the time, all the time. I just wanted to say, no, this is what you need to do.
But sometimes you have to take a step back and just allow that to happen. So, you know, the conceptual offense has been great for us. I'm super excited. But one of my favorite parts is you're really teaching the game both ways the entire time.
Yeah.
So I talk about conceptual offense, and it's not that we just focused on that, but because of the way that you're teaching it, your defense is getting so many reps in. And a variety of different coverages and coverage solutions. I think that that also makes it very, very beneficial.
Adam, you answered that so well. I mean, I think for coaches at any level, just what you alluded to there, it's, it's, and that's the best thing where you have these principles of play. There's so many different things you can touch on and adapt as opposed to just copy and pasting offenses year on year.
You're really adapting based on what you have in front of you. And individual constraints, looking at your players, their action capabilities, what they can do from a perspective of looking at their skillful behaviors. And then, you know, those principles that you're looking at, it's all based on that.
And also just building on the point you said about the defense, I mean, it's obviously, I would say I'm very offensive orientated, but when we're kind of creating these environments, it's, you're getting everything at the same time. And I think so many coaches, especially even at the professional and college levels, you know, they're coaching very much from the lens of let's do an offense drill, let's do a defense drill, and the whole practice is just cycling between, or maybe it's a focus on one thing one day.
And I haven't done that for 5 years, and we don't need to because we just manipulate constraints. So let's look now at some of your practice activities. So were there any kind of go-to activities that you really liked last year in your first year kind of building these principles of play?
Yeah, so for us, practice usually started with us either in the weight room, usually a 20 to 30 minute microdose session of that, or it was Honestly, using some of the games that I've created in PE class and brought them into the practice.
And for a lot of times it was using different athleticism that they don't typically use in basketball, you know, and exploring those different movement possibilities. And as someone from the States here where we play a lot of games, you know, and you and I have had conversations about how that's a lot different than overseas.
Yeah.
especially in Europe, where it's not uncommon for us to play 3 or 4 games in a week. So your practice time is very, very minimal. So when I initially went this route, I was very concerned about losing practice time. And essentially, like, oh, I'm spending 8 to 10 minutes, our guy's playing badminton with a variety of different things, right?
That has nothing to do with basketball. Is that going to negatively affect us? And it had the complete opposite. So that's kind of our way to kind of get it started. And then for us, we played As much as we can, 5-on-5. And what I found is I used to always engineer practice where, okay, we started, you know, 1-on-1 stuff, then we built it up to 2-on-2, 3-on-3, 4-on-4, and it was linear the entire time.
So now what we typically do is after our warmup, we take 15 to 20 minutes and kind of focus on, I guess, player dev or player development. Because we don't have the luxury of bringing guys in in the morning and afternoon. Everything is kind of mashed together in a 1 to 2 and a half hour segment between our weight room stuff and all that.
So our player dev has definitely been influenced by the CLA big time. You know, long gone are the on-air stuff that I used to do. And now everything is centered around that perception and action coupling that we've heard so many times in the CLA.
But that's really where the development, in my opinion, has occurred. The repetition without repetition. All those concepts, what, you know, kind of underpins or underlines the ecological dynamics framework has been there. And then typically after our player dev stuff, sometimes we'll go hop into writing some 5-on-5 focusing on 2-trip, 3-trip a lot of times.
And then based upon that is when I will then go back and if there's specific actions that I would like to see, then we'll break down to the 3-on-3 small-sided game stuff, focusing on whether maybe it's a flare screen or the actions that I felt during our 5-on-5 segment.
Yeah.
Needs a little bit more focus. And that's been the biggest change, I think, for me as a coach. I used to be so detail-oriented with practice plans down to the minute. And if, if the minute came up, regardless of what was happening, we were on to the next thing that I wrote down.
And it's funny, now my practice plans look so much different. And sometimes they go off in a completely different direction than I had planned, you know, and I think. As a teacher, that, that's helped me a little bit because I know how that's the— how the classroom setting is, especially in PE class where you have a lesson planned and then all of a sudden something isn't working out and you have to tweak it and you have to tweak it.
So that, that's been really, really cool to see how that has kind of come up as my development as a coach as well.
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Great stuff, Adam. I think that's exactly it. The practice plan, it's not there to handcuff you, it's, it's there to support you. And obviously, when we're applying a CLA well, we know that learning is unpredictable, it's nonlinear. So we have to be ready to adapt based on what's occurring.
We can't just be adapted to following the plan, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's a really good example of the basketball segment. And what I want to do too is I think we can get some blogs or videos out to coaches just showing some of the things you'd be doing in your practice, especially for those— like, I really love what some of those warm-up things you've been doing and taking from the PE, from your PE background.
So let's look at in the weight room now. And you mentioned obviously repetition, repetition. A lot of programs, especially at the high school level, even at the NBA level, You know, it's not rep without rep, it's rep after rep. So what could practitioners do to facilitate the simplest things they could do to encourage that in the weight room?
And maybe even— you do all my workout plans for me. I'm super grateful for that because I don't want a traditional coach doing it. I want to, you know, I'm committed my life, I'm committed to the CLA. Maybe could you even talk about some of those tasks, Adam, as well as how you facilitate rep without rep?
Some of what these actual tasks look like?
100%. So, you know, it's funny, we, we talk about the weight room stuff right now. I got a group training downstairs right now, and those guys building their workout for them today, what we typically start with is some sort of movement-based program. Like for right, their initial plan today was they put 10 minutes on a clock, they have a variety of hurdles, and they're exploring different ways they can jump over those hurdles onto a taller box.
And while we're working on that athleticism, all those great qualities, instead of just going the same rep after every single time, and a lot of times, especially for basketball players, that wear and tear happens. And really anybody in athleticism or training, if you're just grinding out the same movement patterns week in and week out, that's typically when the overuse injuries begin to happen.
So I love starting sessions out like that where they have to become Problem solvers, and they kind of get to self-explore a little bit. It's always hilarious to see some of these dudes doing some wrestling stuff or some of these guys doing tumbling.
You know, you got these 6'5, 6'6 kids doing forward rolls on the boxes. So exploring, you know, that is really kind of where I spend my first 10 to 15 minutes. And then when we do begin incorporating some of the weight room stuff, there's a variety of different ways that I've gone with that.
It can be week to week. Sometimes it can be set to set. So for example, if we're hitting a goblet squat, for example, the first set is you know where your your feet are our traditional stance, and then the second set is maybe where we elevate your heels a little bit.
Third set is a little bit wider, so we're getting a variety of different movement patterns in. And sometimes it's where maybe our main barbell lifts for the day or main output is you know a trap bar deadlift, and we do hit that. Well, week two we'll switch that main.
Compact movement up a little bit where it's something different. So it's that fine line of having variety, but not to the point where the program just feels like it's hopping around everywhere and there's no rhyme or reason to it. Um, you know, because sometimes in the weight room, too much variation is, is not exactly what we want either.
So that has helped me structure some things in terms of keeping my athletes fresh while still seeing the overall performance and athleticism in the weight room, you know, continue to drive up. And then I'll tell you what, they enjoy it because they know those, those parts of the session, it's not going to be the same thing every single time.
And that's the big thing, especially with the high school kids, in my opinion, is we want them excited to come to the weight room and train. And if anybody can just put down a 3, 3 sets of 10 this movement, and if it's just the same thing over and over again, I think you're going to lose some buy-in.
of that and keeping that weight room environment exciting, fresh, new, you know, all those sorts of things.
Love that. I mean, obviously it's impossible to predict, but I think it's, you know, maybe, maybe 3% of basketball coaches worldwide or even less are using the CLA in practice. But in terms of athletic performance, it's certainly less than 1%. And I think it's, it's even easier, I think, just to apply some rep about rep.
Just through some of those ideas you just shared with us. You know, it's not hard to do it. And at every level, you know, even at the highest level, when we're not really seeing that. So I think there's huge strides that could be made in athletic performance.
So let's get to your boys. And for coaches working mini basket, which is under 12s, or working with a beginner at any age for the first time, you've never taught your boys a move. You've never done—
No.
you know, rote repetition, repeating the same techniques over and over again. So in that case, what is it that you are doing with them and what would it look like, you know, using the framework of ecological dynamics to, you know, develop their movement abilities at such a young age?
For sure. So it's so different because, right, it's so, it couldn't be further from the way I was taught how to do, perform many sports and many skills, you know, where It was just the repetition, that repetition over and over again, explicit instruction saying, hey, keep the elbow here, keep this.
And honest to God, I've never told my 6-year-old any of that in terms of shooting a basketball. And I think the big thing is, make no mistake about it, my kids have grown up in the gym. My wife is an athletic director, you know, so they've been around it and they've seen it, you know, quite a bit, not only basketball, but a variety of sports.
But for me, getting him in the driveway and using a lot of the differential instruction stuff with him and shooting and just seeing how he self-organizes in certain things.
And just encouraging to explore different movements, right?
Correct. And big time with footwork, you know, a lot of rhythm stuff where, you know, he jumps on, on his right leg or right foot 3 times and then, you know, fights for his feet and rises up and shoot it. And just watching him kind of explore those things and me really just Applying a variety of different constraints and manipulating him to see how he responds to stuff.
And the one video I posted on Twitter was him. I said, okay, show me as many different layups as you possibly can. And that's when I was the one I sent you. I think Alex was because out of nowhere, this dude busts out a left-handed layup, you know, and I never said, hey, put your right foot down, extend your left arm.
Let you know, I never, there was never any explicit instruction on that. And for him to, to kind of fire that up, I was just kind of blown away on that. And then the big thing is with Finn, my 6-year-old, we had a group of 20 kids and for an hour we'd come in on Sundays and we would just basically put them in a variety of different one-on-one situations for the first 15, 20 minutes of practice.
Early on, giving them a lot of advantage where the shoulder-to-chest advantage where somebody, you know, my son's dribbling a basketball, the defender's on. on his shoulder to give a big advantage, and then he would go attack at the rim. And just watching the development of those things was, was absolutely huge.
And then we would kind of transition from a variety of different small-sided games, that type of stuff, and then into some 3-on-3 stuff. But it's been really, really cool to see the development, not only from the basketball perspective, but I'm huge on the youth training stuff.
And I'm all about teaching these dudes how to become better movers and exposing them to so many different movements. in the, you know, for lack of a better term, weight room training. You know, my son's not actually lifting weights, but he, you know, the different jumping that they're doing, chase games, tag games, that stuff, I think in the long term is going to pay dividends for, for his athleticism, you know, but there's something I'm pretty passionate about that.
And I think about it all the time, whether I'd like to open my own facility to really kind of focus in on some of that stuff. Cause I think that's a huge need. And, but that's also where I get an outlet in the PE class, right?
Because that's, that's basically what I get to do. And PE looks so much different now, my classes, than they did, you know, 5 years ago. It's crazy. It really is exciting stuff. And it's cool to see, especially when it's your own kids, that development and them having success and having fun as it's going along.
So that's actually, Adam, where I want to finish the podcast with. We've looked at applying an ecological approach on the court, in the weight room, with the development of your kids in their sporting endeavors. But then also, you know, I think there's enormous potential to apply ecological ideas in the classroom.
Now, obviously, you're, you're a PE teacher, so it's going to be different to some of your colleagues, but have you ever wondered maybe what an ecological approach could look like in the classroom as opposed to the traditional model of teaching, which we're very much Seeing in the present day.
Absolutely. And, you know, the problem with education, at least here, and I can only speak for my experience in the United States here, is it feels like we're just so slow to change things up. We've just been in the traditional, you know, mindset for a very, very long time.
And something like this, which really sparks the creativity in the educator, and that's what I think is so awesome about it, is it's taken me, it's, it's kind of forced me, for lack of a better term, to become a much better teacher and coach and educator.
And I wonder if that can be applied. Again, I don't have any experience teaching math using the CLA, right? I just have my experience in the PE classroom experience. But it'd be interesting to see. Are you aware of any classrooms that are beginning to utilize that?
Not yet. I'm sure there must be some people looking into it. There's gonna be. And I'm just, yeah, I'm really keen because what we have seen is, you know, I wrote it a little about it in the book. We've seen a lot of classroom ideas trying to be like— teachers have tried to take classroom ideas into the sports world.
And for me, I've got a lot of issues with that. And, you know, I'm not— I think there can be good things you might be able to take, like maybe how you're speaking to a group, feedback, things like that. But I think in itself it's a flawed model.
Because it's, it's just a completely different endeavor. But, you know, I think just the power of an ecological framework, what that could mean for learning in the classroom, it's completely different. I guess it would be a lot more kind of reframing the role of a teacher, just like with the sports coach, where, you know, they're enabling far more self-discovery as opposed to just lectures, filling some, you know, leaving blanks, not giving all the answers.
And I'm really intrigued to see, you know, what could happen in this space over the next few years.
Yeah. And, you know, like in our building where I'm at, the kids have multiple teachers over the course of the day, you know, so it's basically, they have certain periods. So that's another factor too, is, you know, they're getting one style of teaching here compared to another, you know what I mean?
So there's a variety of things that would also play in that factor to it. But I can tell you the PE stuff that we're currently doing is pretty exciting and it's pretty cool stuff.
Well, great stuff. So Adam, where could practitioners get hold of you, you know, if they're interested in some of the stuff you've done on the court, in the weight room, or with the boys? What's the best way they could reach out on social media?
Yeah, there's a few different things. For Twitter, or X now that it's called, if Coach— @CoachDeGroot1, I believe— that's where I post a lot of stuff basketball concept related. All the weight room stuff, the training stuff is @nightshadetraining, N-I-G-H-T-S-H-A-D-E training, and that's on Instagram.
I post a ton of stuff on there, and that is— it's pretty cool because it's got the youth stuff that I've done with my, with, you know, my 6-year-old and my 3-year-old and some of the groups I train with them. It's got a bunch of high school and college kids that I train, and it also has a lot of my personal training because I think that it's super important for The practitioners or myself, if I'm going to preach this stuff, I have to use it my own self.
You know what I mean? And that's, I think that's a big part of the buy-in. When I started incorporating some of this stuff, you know, I was enjoying the session so much that I began sharing that as well. So those are the main two areas that I'm posting on socials quite a bit.
And then I'm also working with, you know, we touched base in Vegas a little bit on a company called Train Your Brain, talking about mental performance kind of. I believe that a good coach, especially at the high school level, due to your staff size, you have to be a jack of all trades.
Yeah, right. We don't have the luxury of—
That's what I call it. Yeah.
You don't have the luxury of having a strength coach on staff and having a mental performance coach on staff. So you better address the whole entire athlete, the total athlete. I'd highly suggest coaches taking a peek at Train Your Brain. It'll be TYB Consultants.
On Twitter. We're creating an online curriculum that coaches can use to, to talk and have a lot of these conversations. That's another great, great resource as well.
Amazing, Adam. That was a really enjoyable episode. I think, you know, key message for those listening, an ecological approach, it transcends far more than just basketball. So thanks again for taking the time.
Appreciate you having me on, Alex, and, uh, it was great talking with you, man.
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