High School Coach of the Year Carson Huelle on Applying CLA Principles

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Welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. On today's episode, we have Coach Carson Huehl. Carson, welcome to the show.

Thanks so much for having me, George. This is definitely an honor and a blessing to join you in conversation. Can honestly say I'm a fan of the podcast and listen to it a lot. So really appreciate you having me on.

Pleasure. Firstly, I want to ask you, you just, you know, finished your season not too long ago with the Fort Collins Lambskins. I know you had some success the high school team didn't experience for a while. Could you tell us a little bit about that?

And then also how you start to touch on how did you have that success?

You know, Fort Collins High School is my alma mater. So it was cool to come back because this was my first year coaching high school, but then also my first year as a head coach. And then with it being back at the place that I played basketball at and went to school at was a pretty cool experience.

So went definitely 2 feet in. And then as you mentioned too, the team has been a little bit up and down. We've had some coaching changes, coaching switches these past couple of years. And so to come in with definitely a mindset of what I've learned from playing college basketball, coaching college basketball.

It was a lot of fun to implement some things and then have buy-in from the team. You don't know necessarily what's going to work and what isn't going to work, but tried to, you know, implement a lot of different things. You know, being on this podcast is a great opportunity to share some of those things too, just because we did utilize the CLA in almost every one of our practices this season.

Sometimes when we got into scouting teams, it'd be a little bit tougher. But for sure, preseason, open gyms, all that stuff. We definitely tried to put a huge emphasis on skill acquisition and just teaching the girls the game from a growth mindset. And just every single day is an opportunity to learn and grow.

And we focused on, you know, skill acquisition, probably about 45 minutes every single day. And it was a huge part of our program. And, you know, we have 3 levels. So we have varsity, JV, and C team. And we started out as all together in one group every single day for practice, just to make sure every single day we're getting better because sometimes it can get mundane throughout the season.

And, you know, you want to make sure that, you know, they're having fun, they're learning, especially at the high school level too. So yeah, certainly tried to focus on some of those main things.

Yeah, it sounds like you picked up a lot, especially in your stops in D2 and D3 basketball. I'm curious, along with those stops and the work that you do with Jeff— so Jeff is a member of our Transforming community. He's been to the Transforming summer camp the last 2 camps, and I'm pretty sure he'll be there for a 3rd straight time this year.

So I'm looking forward to seeing him again. What did you learn from those stops at other colleges that do things differently and working alongside of Jeff now that you've brought into this team this past season?

Yeah, so the journey with, you You know, Jeff Schmidt at Schmidt Performance was one that started out when I was playing basketball in high school. I played for him and then he started his training when I was playing college basketball. So I kind of saw him change and develop a little bit more as a, as a coach through, through the training, because it's just different than being a head coach when you're actually just working with kids one-on-one.

And so I got to work with him in that sense. And then when I got done playing college basketball, I started to help him out and that's when he started to do a little bit more. I don't even know if it was CLA to that point, but it was more game-like, making reads, doing things that were a little bit more innovative than other people were.

And then, as you mentioned, coaching college, certainly learned some stuff. And I had my hands on skill development a lot. And I'm sure if I saw myself even 3, 4 years ago, I'd be going, what the heck am I doing? That's a waste of time.

Because it was a lot of traditional stuff and there's a time and a place for traditional things. But coming back this summer, this past summer, we were working with almost 100 clients in the Northern Colorado area. And oh my gosh, I mean, just learning so much and pushing each other.

And he came back from your guys' camps too and just like, well, yes, wealth of knowledge and just teaching me so much. And, you know, and then I know Carrie too, and in the Transforming community, I met her a couple of years ago too.

And we've stayed in contact as well. And she's just a wealth of knowledge too. And it just really challenged all the, all the thoughts and the ideas that I had about basketball. It's like, no, you're, you're not necessarily wrong, but you need to rethink this thing because there's a better way to do things.

And obviously what You know, Alex is done now. It's you know, it's on the highest stage with the NBA and the WNBA. And so we see that you know it can help a lot of programs. And then I've been able to utilize those things too, just like even in this past year.

And the proof is really in the pudding. I mean, it's a it's an incredible you know resource for sure. So it's been I can't say enough good things about you know Jeff and the mentorship that he's given me. But you know we both just feel.

feast over these ideas. I have the book, you know, right here. I know there's probably people listening to the audio, but the— I have the Transforming Basketball book and, you know, we both just nerd out over this stuff and just absolutely love and adore it and push each other, I think, in the process too.

Yeah. And I think it's also like, you also give valuable feedback to each other. It's like, oh, you know, I tried this, it didn't work. What, what else could I have done? And just exchanging ideas like that. I am curious, what are some practical small-sided games that you utilize specifically?

Let's just stay on your team here, or maybe even your training session with Jeff as well. But what are some specific small-sided games you're like, okay, that's a new one. I really enjoyed that one that you can share with us.

Yeah, something we did over the season that I really enjoyed is we do 2 courts going on at the same time. Maybe 3 depending on what numbers we would have. Sometimes it's difficult with practice planning. Sometimes you have an odd number, sometimes you have an even number, but I love 3-on-3.

And so, we would utilize our triggers and making sure that we're developing within our triggers by playing 3-on-3. And, there's a variety of constraints that you can add, but the first one was time-based. So, we're playing for 2.5, maybe 3 minutes. FIBA rules, but every single time you must, you know, start out with a ball screen.

Every time you must start out with, with get action, you know, and from there you can really, really build out of it too. You know, you can play with just about everything, especially if your team is deficient in areas too. You know, once we started to really develop within our actions too, like we, you know, we started to implement some zoom action and we would just keep it on one side of the court too.

So we break down the court. And 2 sides and out of bounds is kind of that midline split line. Everyone has different verbiage for it in the basketball community, but that's out of bounds. So you can only play one side of the court, but you must start in zoom action.

And then the more they develop and they understand some of these things too, they get creative with it as well. And they, I can tell the actions they want to start off with as well, but pin downs or down screens, utilizing that. You know, you can't, you can't come off the down screen and shoot, you know, mid-range.

You must get to the rim. There's just a million different things that we could do with it. And with Jeff, we do the same thing too, especially the bigger groups that we have. But that's what's so great about the CLA is that if you have 4 kids, you can play 2-on-2.

You know, if you've got 6, you have 3-on-3 and you just build out of it. Even if you do have an odd number too, I think utilizing different numbers too, because a lot of high school kids do see zone. So if you have 5 kids in session, you know, you can do a lot of 3-on-2 stuff too.

And no passing is a great constraint too. So, or I mean, no dribbling rather is a great constraint and something that we're continually developing with Jeff too, just because it adds a lot to the game. The dribble hurts offenses, I think, a lot.

Yeah, I think there was one Liam Jefferson who was on the podcast who's been On the podcast a couple of times as a clinician. He, he is like the one, the one dribble rule. So it's like, you know, you, you're still triggering, but you only have one trigger.

And when I first heard it, I was like, wow, that's extreme. But he says it's been, you know, hugely beneficial and they can still get into their action. So something I'm, I'm keen to try myself. Yeah, man. And what about skill development, small-sided games?

Because I think that's a great one that you mentioned. Coaches can use that to work on. You know, the team concepts, like how you're going to guard the zoom, how you're going to guard a dribble handoff. And then what, what about specifically if you want to just, you know, we want to develop this player's, you know, this skill, what, what, what are some of the games or a game that has stood out for you?

Yeah, there's, man, there's so much that we, we like to utilize within, you know, Schmidt Performance, but then also with our high school team. And one that I think equally tried to You know, utilize, you know, it's just fast break scenarios. So like in a 2-on-1 setting, you know, when I actually played for Jeff, we called it Cardinal Finishing.

And, you know, I think that's great for kids to, you know, finishing is something so much that like traditionally you'd say, you know, do the Mike and drill or you'd say something, you know, pretty basic like that. But once we added defender and we can really develop the strengths, I think, of a kid.

Say they're left-handed and they only like to finish with their left hand. Well, now we can do, you know, a 2-on-1 constant, you know, finishing drill. And that individual, we can add that constraint to, and we can say, you must finish with your right hand no matter what.

And then all of a sudden they start finishing, you know, same side finish, reverse layups. They get creative, you know, with it then too. There's a lot of different things I think within different settings. that you can utilize as well. It just depends on the kid.

And then I think it depends on it on a team level too, something that you're struggling with. Within a fast break setting too, even if it's not even 2-on-1, say it's a 3-on-2 to a 2-on-1, very traditional drill. But if we utilize that same drill and add constraints to it, we can see that we can get a lot better.

So every time I catch the ball, if I don't get the defender to attack me and we don't create a scenario in which the defender takes the ball. Something that I said a lot to our team, you know, one can't guard 2. Well, in a fast break scenario, if you're passive and you don't look at the rim or attack the rim, you're not going to create that advantage at all.

So, you know, and then you can add constraints with that too, like only 2 passes in a 2-on-1 drill. That way they're not overutilizing the pass. They're really more utilizing the dribble, which is important, I think, in a fast break. scenario too, and getting the defense to commit.

So that's probably an example that comes to my mind, just because in fast break scenarios, you do want to convert. And our bad passes too, that's another great constraint. If you give a bad pass, it's minus, you know, a point. If you're doing it in a team setting too, you know, just overemphasizing how important it is to take care of the ball is something we did a lot.

No matter what the drill was this past season, every time it's a turnover, it's minus a point. Making sure that we're taking care of the ball. And you start to take care of the ball when you start to lose small-sided games. It's just crazy.

And you don't have to put the team on the line all the time and make them run, you know, sprints or suicides. If they lose games, people usually start to wake up a little bit.

Yeah, it's, it's one of the best feedbacks, right? It's like you've lost, so you have to do something different. You have to find another solution to try and win. And then you play again. And to your point, you can constrain it. You can only use your right hand or you can only use your weak hand.

The number of dribbles and you're creating these affordance landscapes So that the players can work on maybe something that they don't practice normally, but now they're being forced to because it's what the constraints force them to do. It's also like, you know, it's a great job, you know, working with Jeff at the camp.

I know I can only imagine some of the type of stuff that you guys do, but what about the, I think it's, you know, probably even more important is meeting the athletes where they're at. What does that mean to you exactly? And how do you do it?

Yeah. So I think the traditional way, I always look at it both ways. Okay. What's the traditional landscape and what have we been taught? From the early stages of basketball. And I think it's more, you know, coaching came from a lot of like drill sergeants kind of type coaches, the Bobby Knights that were out there.

And it's, you have to do it this way. And we're going to coach every athlete the same exact way. And if you can't understand what we need out of you, then we're just going to continually add pressure to you. And if you break down, you break down and it's just not a fit.

And what I found through that process is that you're going to lose a lot of good players. And, you know, I grew up in boys basketball, men's basketball, and that, that I would say can work better on the men's side and the boys side, but you're still going to lose, I think, kids that thrive in an environment in which they can continually develop, be creative, and just have a growth mindset.

And That's part of why I coach girls and I coach women just because people ask me why I do. And I think you can get better reception from the athlete because girls will tell you sometimes vocally, but then also sometimes just through emotion, how something made them feel when you give them particular feedback.

So, you know, berating someone or telling an athlete how bad they are when they miss a shot or anything like that. It's never going to work, I think, really in any setting, but in particular, I think, you know, in any environment in which an athlete is developing as a human being, do they want to be met with where they're at?

Going to your question now too, every athlete's different. There are some kids that actually do like to be coached a little bit harder. There are some kids that, you know, you've got to be careful what you say. To them. And everyone goes through different things too.

I think there are people that have a really good day, whether it's at school or maybe they, you know, are working a part-time job and they just got a raise and they come to practice and they're on cloud nine. Like, but there's some people that have a really bad day.

They maybe just failed a test. And the last thing that they need is someone just, you know, berating them. And so that's what I've found too. You know, through, I think, you know, Transforming Basketball, but just developing, I think, you know, relationships with the players that are rooted in, hey, I value you as a human first and then a basketball player second.

And I think when you can do that and you develop trust with the kids, you're going to be able to coach them in different ways. And I think just asking the athletes too, like, how do you want to be coached? And they'll tell you and you can get to them quicker.

So I hope that kind of answers that question. There's a million ways, you know, you can go in that direction too, because I think it's something that is continually underutilized in the coaching community too. They don't talk about it maybe as much, but I think it's important.

Every team is different. Every athlete is different too.

Yeah. The importance of asking questions and just asking your players exactly what you said, you know, how do you want me to coach you? Because then they're letting you know how they want you to help them improve. And I think it's valuable. Not for kids to also think about that as well, just giving them a platform to think, all right, well, hey, what do you think about this?

Instead of always having the answer for them as the coach. Carson, I want to ask you, you had obviously a really successful year. I think personally, you know, you took home Coach of the Year honors with the high school. I'm curious, obviously the year before you guys had a losing record, but coming into it, you know, what are some maybe of the principles of play that you've changed?

From the previous season to this season that really helped your team score more points, be better defensively?

Yeah. So, you know, within the framework of our offense and defense, I was able to kind of come in in a nice scenario because the previous, you know, coaching staff, everything, I was able to watch some games, but at the same time, I'm like, ignorance is bliss.

I kind of want to just go in not knowing what they did. And so within that framework, you know, we did a lot on the offensive end. You know, we did some 5-out, we did some, you know, 4-out stuff and you have structure within that for sure, but it comes from the small-sided games.

And I think I always felt like growing up that you had to have a continuity offense. You had to have something where if this player does this, then this happens. And really just being introduced into Transforming Basketball, it's like, no, you don't necessarily have to do that because now You're going to have your athletes move like robots and every single time they do something quote unquote wrong, it's going to affect them in a way that, that actually hurts them because now they're constantly paranoid that they're doing the wrong thing or the right thing.

So yeah, we still have rules within the offense. You know, the floor is lava, one can't guard 2, making sure that spacing is optimal. We still, you know, in a 4-out setting, we have someone that's maybe in the dunker spot. You know, at all times, there's still rules, you know, within that.

But I think the girls understood basketball to a certain level, but they needed to be taught some basic things a little bit more. And you do that, you know, through practice. And like I said, in the small-sided games, sometimes you have to break down too, but you can add constraints to everything.

That's why I love the CLA. Because if you have a team that's deficient in setting screens, they're not finding a body when they're sitting pinned down. You can coach that up too. Every time you set a screen and you don't hit a body, it's a turnover.

There's a million things you can do on that end of things, but really just on a culture level, it didn't really matter what we did. I'd say offensively and defensively, it comes from buy-in and making sure the athletes do feel valued. So it kind of goes back to your, your last question.

You know, coaching is a great tool and it's a great utilization. You're really a teacher when you coach, but You know, I think Cori Close recently, there was an interview she was talking with different coaches and she was talking about John Wooden and it's like, you're coaching their hearts.

That's what you're doing. And usually when you're coaching their heart, you know, jump shots start to fall. She said something to that extent. And it really is so true because I can do whatever on offense or defense, but if the team doesn't think that I value them as human beings, They probably don't care how much I know about basketball.

So that was what led to a lot of our success, I think, is just the girls understanding that I cared about them and that I valued them and that no matter what, I was going to be the hardest worker in the program too.

I think that's really, really important as a head coach. Because like I said, I've been an assistant before this and I pride myself, I want to be the hardest working assistant. And if you're head coach, Isn't caring about the program more than the team, that's going to set some tricky dynamics too.

So I think it was just a lot of those elements. I wanted to make sure that girls knew that I care, but then also that I was putting a lot of time into this. And usually they return that favor when they see that.

So that led to a lot of our success, honestly, that formula, but that I found that to work.

That's great. It's like transformational coaching and mirroring the behaviors or setting the example by You know, making sure that you lead by example. And it's also reminded me of something, what you were saying is like, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care.

And it's, you know, I've always liked that quote. I'm curious though, looking back, I want to ask this question to you. Is there anything that you would do differently this past season that now that you're going into your second year with the team, maybe you feel more comfortable for whatever reason?

Is there anything looking back, you're like, hmm, I would have done that differently, or why?

Yeah, there's a million things. You just, I feel like when you have a growth mindset, it's a gift and it's a curse, but you can never look at what you did as a complete positive. I'd say, you know, more game-like scenarios every single practice.

And I know that sounds crazy, but there's so much that you can do, especially within the CLA when, you know, scouting for a team that my mind wasn't ready for because I was still focusing on things that I've maybe done in the past or that I've learned in the past.

And like I said, I brought up Corey Close. You know, she's someone that I, I think is, you know, really privy to the, the CLA and is starting to utilize it within her program at UCLA. And I saw something from this past year when a team, they were working on breaking a press against a team and they utilized the CLA within that.

And they kind of broke it down into a little bit more of a 3-quarter court. game and they would start out with the ball, you know, maybe where a player was getting trapped and then they played out of it from there. And then they awarded points for different things.

Everyone's got a different point system there, but I'm like, I felt like there was times in which I got stuck in some of my own ways and it was like, I want to teach it through this, but I didn't teach it through exactly what we were going to see sometimes.

But the results that I think we got are when You know, you let go a little bit and you, you let players play through mistakes. Practices, the times where they get stale or they're clean and they feel good, usually when you walk into that game, you're going to go through some bumps and bruises.

You need the games to feel less chaotic than the practices. And so I would say in short, more chaos, you know, chaos every single practice. Because if we can be calm in that environment, you're probably going to be in that top percentage. And team.

So, you know, felt like there's different ways that I could utilize that. And practices don't have to be 2 hours. You know, that's such a common myth that I think, I mean, we can go really, really hard for an hour and 30 minutes, an hour, if we make it look like a game, because games are around that same time too.

So practices shouldn't be super long and boring. We should be assimilating the game as much as possible. So I think more chaos, like I said, in short.

Nah, that's great. I couldn't agree more. I think it's, let's say you have coaches have a particular rate limiter on their team and that's how, you know, we're, we're not handling full court presses good. And maybe it's just specific, like, oh yeah, 1-2-2 press is causing us a lot of issues.

All right. So then maybe you can watch some film and you can say, all right, how can we break this down? Because we're really struggling. If we're turning the ball over, it's slowing our tempo down. How can we create this and what kind of constraints can we add?

To maybe, you know, if we just do a 1-2-2, but only with the 3 players on one side of the floor or the 3 players in the frontcourt. If you do that, how can you add the constraints? And then you can start to, you know, really think critically about, you know, how can you design practices to really help your team and using the CLA to target the specific rate limiters.

So yeah, man, I think that's great as well. Carson, I have one more question for you before I let you go. And that is our transformative tip. I almost felt when you were saying add more chaos, I was like, oh, that's a good answer.

But I'm curious, do you have a transformative tip? And that's any tip that will instantly improve a coach's training session.

Yeah, there's a million things just because basketball is so unpredictable. And so I think the more you lean into that and understand that there isn't one particular way to coach, there isn't one practice plan that you can utilize in order to get positive results and you just lean into that and understand that there's so many, you know, uncontrollables within basketball.

You start to, you know, understand that and really live in that world where it is, like I said, chaotic at times. I think the more results, you know, you're going to find. And I think just from a coaching perspective is like, it's not about you.

You know, I was able to have some success this year, like you said, with some of the awards and things of that nature. But it's a reflection of, of the team. It's a reflection of the staff. But I think anytime we get caught up in thinking that we've figured it out and anytime we think that we've arrived, you're probably going to get knocked on your butt, you know, pretty shortly after.

So I just think for any coaches that are, you know, potentially listening to this, because I am a young coach, but I think the success that I've had so far is, you know, never being satisfied with The results that you do get. There's always a better way to do things.

And I think that's why the Transforming community is so great because you're looking for the best optimal answer for skill acquisition and skill development. And so the way that you maybe did something the year prior is not the way you should probably be doing it a year after, because I think a lot of coaches out there think, well, we do this because it's the way we've always done it and we get results.

Well, that's not always the case. And there's a lot of good coaches out there that get fired or quite frankly, just get out of the business. And the more you can kind of have that creative mindset that you guys provided with a lot of your framework, I think the better.

So just keep reading on the literature. I'm going to be watching, you know, the Portland Fire a lot this year too. And just learn, you know, from people out there like, like Alex, like yourself. I'm very fortunate to have Jeff at my disposal here in Colorado.

And learning from him, but you should always be learning. If you're not, you know, you're probably going to get passed up pretty shortly thereafter.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And there's so much free resources online now that you can always— and with podcasts and just watching the game, you know, there's been a lot of good basketball played this time of the year. But Carson, I want to thank you.

It's been great. Just, you know, the humility you have, it's just been great having this conversation with you. I really appreciate it.

Yeah. Thank you so much, George. And I really appreciate all you do for the basketball community. It was a pleasure talking to you.

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