Coaching the Italian Youth National Team with Alessandro Nocera

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We've got a special episode coming to you live from Varese in northern Italy. We're here with Alessandro Locera. Alessandro is the head coach of the Italian U15 national team, and they're here for their training camp, as well as the head of player development For the big EuroLeague club Baskonia, Ale, it's a pleasure to have you with us.

My pleasure, my friend.

So you're one of my closest friends, and we go quite a way back where we were coaching in very different ways, like six years ago when we when we first met. I think more, maybe even more. Could have been.

Yeah, no, you're right.

I think around six.

2018, you're right.

I think so. So normally we don't do this on the podcast, but I think it would be very interesting for you to tell the story of. How we met, our first interactions together, because throughout the episode we're kind of morphed into how we've changed as coaches and all the great interactions we've had.

Yes, we met in the— I think the first time was in Rogla.

That was it, up a mountain in Slovenia.

Yes, was a, was a junior NBA event with the best players, best with some selected players from Europe. And I remember we were immediately on the same page. Commenting some slide of our friend, now our friend Radmanovic, because he was doing, he was telling to us that with slide you can cover all the court.

We were saying to him, no, we think it's more about cross-step and sprinting. It was fun. It was fun.

Amazing. Yeah, that was really funny. Just Back then we spoke about a lot of things that as coaches we teach that maybe don't make as much sense in the present, present day.

Right. You're right. Because it's all about what you— what is not about the books.

Yeah.

It's not about the, yeah, the historic principles about basketball, but it is about the game. So, you know, we gotta, we gotta watch, uh, the game and the how the game evolves.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, uh, you gotta be on, on page.

Most definitely. So I want to get to immediately one of the biggest things I've learned from you, defensive principles of play. So I remember as soon as we first met in Slovenia, very quickly after that, I came to visit you in Trieste where you were coaching at the time.

You were the head of the youth sector there. And I remember the, your, your team was, the way they played defense was incredibly aggressive. They're very intentional about ball pressure. And you don't often actually see that in youth teams. It sounds like a very simple thing, but you don't really see that level of intentionality with how we're actually defending the ball.

So could you talk a little bit, Ale, just about some of these defensive principles, especially in youth basketball?

For me, it's about the, first of all, the concept that when the ball can move faster, you are always late. So if you don't put pressure on the ball, the ball moves fast. So you will be always in closeout. You will be late on the weak side.

So when you play against good teams, you will be always in late. The other thing is that if you talk with the high-level players, they will tell you that it's not about what you do in defense, but it's about how you do. For example, I was talking with one of my friends, Peppe Poeta, that now will be coaching in Brescia, and he's assistant coach of the national team of Italy, senior.

And he was a very good player, and he was telling me, I play better against a drop cover. But if you ask me if I play better against a bad show coverage or a drop coverage with the aggressiveness, I prefer the bad show coverage.

Yeah.

So, and also now being close to high-level players and with our team and everything, you can tell that all the high-level coaches, they want ball pressure, they want contact, they need players. actually have the courage to be close with their feet. Because at that level, if you stay far, they're going to shoot the ball, especially modern basketball.

You see now Boston with 5 players on the court that can shoot the ball. So if you want to create players from that level, you must push them to have courage to stay close and be ready if they beat you, run back and be in front of them because you will speed up the offense.

They will make more mistakes and let's see if they have the fundamentals. Yeah. To play at high speed. Because when you play slow, everyone is good to dribble or to shoot. When you play fast, it's harder to make, to be effective in offense.

It's, it's like what we was talking about before. It's redefining fundamentals and what they are. For instance, a fundamental is to defend the ball very aggressively. That's very different to the traditional fundamental, like the step slide, right? It's, it's more looking at the fundamentals as the, the principles.

Yes. Right. Versus the actual very old outdated techniques.

It's connected. Yeah. Because, uh, Everything is connected. You must be coherent in your, in your idea. For example, if I ask to play close, I cannot ask to always slide because it's impossible. If I'm close, then it's like the denial.

Closed is the denial.

No, close, I mean, with your feet closed. Sure. And, and when, when, if they attack you, usually you don't have the space to go to slide. So you need to turn your hips.

Yeah. And just sprint the COVID Yeah.

And the other thing is very important is that You need to connect all the defense. For example, in national team, our head coach, Pozsecco, he designed all the technical work for every one of us. And we want to be open in the back.

We want to be active with fakes, with helps. So we allowed, we give the confidence to the player on the ball to be aggressive because he knows—

There's gonna be some help.

Yes. So if you ask, someone to be more aggressive, you need to work all together. Okay. You need everyone to be active, but this is more real to the, to the high-level basketball. So in national team, we, we use this concept.

I love, Ali, just the simple fact that there's a plan that comes from the head coach of the senior team down to the youth Italian national teams. I think that's so huge cuz I know, you know, I've, I've worked quite a bit now with so many different federations and it's so surprising still have no cohesive plan where it's like, this is our national style of play.

These are the principles of play at the age groups. It's surprising. So it's so cool to hear that.

Because we always did, because, uh, like everything, every year you, you, you do better. But I made years in national team and we always try to, to talk and to connect because, um, when you have a short, uh, time, a short window of time, you need You need to, to think for the future.

So what we are doing now with under 15, we are working for that, for the under 16 of next season. So we have to create a group of people that know each other. We need to develop the players from next season to help talking with the clubs about this.

And then we need to create a system that next year will be more or less the same. Because if not, every year they start from scratch and this doesn't make sense because you don't have 6 months. You have 1 month, 20 days to get on the team.

And even, you know, a lot of Youth national teams don't even have that luxury of, it's so professional the way you guys do it here. Just coming to the environment, seeing the hotel you're in, the prep time. Some national teams have a week.

So if they're not, if there's no really strategic vision, good luck. Nothing, nothing really is going to happen.

We are lucky because also our general manager, Salvatore Trainotti, with the, with the, now we have also Digital Talent that—

Of course. So that's great.

He's helping us a lot. And, uh, No, they are creating a structure with quality, with care about the players, caring about the coaches. So we have everything. I mean, this year we have one day of preparation with 40 players where 40 players of under 15, they play together and they stay together.

So I start to give these principles and also I can compare them in the game.

Yeah.

And then from these 40, we move to 18. 16, I remember. But, and then we, the exact name, uh, numbers, uh, and then we, we start to play a bit with less players to start to create a team. And then now we did the Junior NBA in Valencia.

Yeah.

It was great because we have 16 games in 4 days and the guys were amazing. And, uh, we, we did very, very good games. We play, we play really well. And now we have the flagship tournament. So, yeah, in 5 days. So. I think these guys are really, really lucky to have this plan that together with the clubs help them to challenge, to believe in their dream to become fantastic players.

So I'd like to talk now about offense with the national team, what you've done. I've been waiting for more youth national teams to do some conceptual offense, and it's been, I really loved watching your games and you implemented it, I believe, was it last summer?

That was before, before. So talk a little bit about that, Alex.

I believe that at this age, especially, you have to connect to the style of play that the clubs— and so in Italy, clubs, uh, they work with not so many sets. Okay. They try to run, they give a lot of freedom to their players.

And I think that that's correct for this age because the time, you don't have all the time of the world, so you gotta choose. And I think from this is the age that you build your technique, your tactic, your individual technique and tactics.

So you need to focus more in the player than in the team. So we try to not to have complex systems, but we try to have principles. And now with the modern basketball, if you see Indiana Pacers, they play with principle, they run, they—

Yeah.

And the spacing of Boston Celtics. I mean, also in level basketball, you play with principle and one-on-one with the ball and without the ball. I think now is the right moment to try to play fast and to, they have to share the ball with principles because I believe that that's the best way to develop them, to help them in these days we are together to become better.

Yeah.

And also I think is the, is the most effective way for them to perform on the court.

Most definitely. Um, we spoke about that before, how interesting it was with the Celtics, how they're spacing the, the MIG defend the most important guy. They're putting like guards like Kyrie as the MIG with their PG on the dunker. Yeah. Really smart.

So smart. So smart. Because, uh, we all, we never talked about this because we always talked like the, also when the 5 Right outside to have a 5-out offense. But it's so smart to put the less physical guy of the opponent team in the dunker spot to defend in the dunker spot.

It's like you play 4-on-4 because when you drive, it's not a real effective help. So that's, it's crazy how the game now is simple and is more run about principle because now the players are skilled, more skilled. And so they are able to get the advantage by themselves.

100%. What would you say, Ale, of the differences? Because a lot of coaches still think conceptual offense that we use is the same as motion offense, where it's a pattern with some passes, but it's very different. Could you just talk about the differences?

Totally different. Yeah. Because, uh, I think motion offense is, uh, something in between having something structured. Actually, motion offense is structured because you have You have some, some space that you have to get the ball in this spot, you have to go in this spot, and then you have some reads.

So it's something in between, between the play and principles. And, you know, when I was younger, I tried, I tried this, but I, I—

Same.

I thought, at the end I realized that this, uh, in my, my, in my experience, I, I'm not saying that motion offense is not correct. In my experience, from my point of view, this wasn't effective for me because at the end it's a mix.

When you go, if you see the high-level teams, they play plays or principles. They don't play something that always continues without finish.

Yeah.

Because it's not real for modern basketball. You need to play fast. You need to play with possession, a lot of possession. You need to play You need to have more shots than the other. So at the end, you, you don't need to move the ball.

And then after 15 seconds, you have the ball in exact place where it was at the start of the play. You only lose time. The same time.

Exactly.

So for me now, it's, it's not, it's not, uh, effective anymore.

That's, that's so interesting. I, and I think that's one of the biggest differences I still see between America and Europe, where you see most American, a lot of American youth basketball. Especially in high school, it's still these continuities and these motions. And it's in Europe.

Yeah, we have motion offense, but I wouldn't say it's, and you know, I'm, I think conceptual offense is a lot better, but it's, it's amazing the difference. And I honestly think that's one of the biggest differences as to why European players can be so skillful because our, the constraints, the shot clock, and the fact we don't really do those things, it's just such a contrast.

But I wanna ask you this because you were the head coach of the Team Europe. At the Junior NBA World Championships.

Yes.

So you're seeing all these players around the world, and I'd love to ask you that question in terms of what you think very specifically are these differences as to why Europe is producing these players compared to, and the coaching differences to what we typically see in the, in the US.

I think that US, they're doing an amazing job because they have, you know, such, they have too many players.

Yeah.

Sure.

A lot of players like playing basketball.

They don't really need to, to develop because it's more like the best go, the best, the best, they, they gonna make it. And they may because their mentality, their hard work. Yeah. And I appreciate their system from the fact that they don't play all season like we do in Europe, but they have short time.

They play in schools, they have AAU, but then they have a lot of time to develop. So they, they work more individually. They, They invest more in the individual development. But while Europe, maybe from some point we create more players compared to the numbers we have, we have less number of players that play or less players.

So because I think from the first day we play basketball, every player is important for us.

Yes.

So for every player, there is a talked about every player. There is a, the way we think about how we have to develop this player. We don't have another one. And I think also United States, the fact that they have different rules, for example, if they change, for example, the clock can help in the youth to—

To play faster, exactly.

More similar to what they need with the senior. But in Europe, we don't have so many players, so we need to work with more quality with the So the, the, the best we have, they're really prepared because also they, they touch before the first teams.

So they, they learn before, uh, what, what they need. And, uh, so the best ones are, uh, are really prepared.

And it's really interesting cuz the focus in the US is so much on the individual. And I think that has the potential to be good if it's a modern skills trainer. Like we've, we had some really good trainers on the podcast, like We've had, uh, Mitch, we've had Tyler Coleman's episodes coming out.

So it's, I think if it's like in that type of environment, it's a big difference. But what we often see is it's not that, it's not CLA. It's, and that's the difference in Europe. I, and I don't wanna generalize, but a player at 14 might know more about spacing than a college player in the US.

And that's just the way it is.

I would never say our system is better because there's a lot of— also because they create more players than us.

Exactly.

So, and they beat Us, they, they are the best players.

National, senior national players. For sure.

So we'll never say our— and I agree, I don't believe so. We are different. And so I think for sure some traditional ways, no, for example, ball handling static, a lot of static ball handling without moving your feet, or, or you need to be more like we said before about the game, no?

I mean, everything is about the game, how the game is played, and try to to see what this player will need. So more I say, I, I, I talk, I stay with young prospects, and more I believe that the most important thing is the project.

You have to understand what this player will be. And so in this way, you see what he will need in 10 years, how the basketball is evolving. And from, from, from the real game situation, you need to— Create the situation that you need to work every day.

And this links to CLA and everything we just talked about.

So everything starts from the, from the game. I think every, the, yeah, the books are, I mean, the old books.

Exactly.

You need to, to be open. You need to see what, what the really game is, what the, what the game is, is, is asking us to do with these young players.

So this, this is it. 'Cause we, we were speaking about this today. We both get questions all the time. Coach, have you got some drills for me or send me some drills? And I understand why coaches ask that, but we both said that if coaches ask for that, it's kind of, they mean well, but respectfully, they're probably missing the point because like you just said, it's not about, all right, let's just take these random drills and do it.

It's more about watching very specifically what your players are doing and then designing. So maybe talk about that and how you go through that process with the players you work with.

It's simple because For example, with the national team, uh, this morning, yesterday we come back from Valencia.

Yeah.

This morning we did a video session and we show to the players what they, what they need to do. And so, uh, in the practice of this evening, what we saw on the video, we will do on the court. It's very simple. It's not about the drills, about— and also it's very important to, to make them understand the game is not easy.

You need to spend time. They need to spend extra time watching games. They need to not only watching highlights, but really like, like in all the jobs, you need to study who's better than you and try to steal the concept and the things that make you better.

No? Yes.

100%. So you've got some really good activities for us. I'm putting, I'm putting you on the spot here. So a lot of our phone calls have been, we've been sharing like our thought process of we saw like a problem. And then we speak with each other about how we designed an activity where players can solve that problem.

And you've come up with some really cool ones. Do you wanna take a stab at explaining them?

For sure. Uh, for example, in the, in the national team, uh, we use, um, the other day we did some individual workout.

Sure.

With the players that didn't play much.

Got it.

We, we, they're always ready.

Yeah.

Also, we want that the players that come to us, they, they don't take If you don't play, you practice.

Love it.

Because we are here to help the players. We're not here to use the players for us to win the games, but we want to get players for the national team, senior. So every day is important. For example, with 2 of them that they need to work on ball handling, we just put one in front of the other.

Yep.

You want me to show you?

Go on, let's do it on the board.

Perfect.

Love it.

So we have One player here with the ball and we have one player here with the ball also and doing dribble, like shifting laterally both.

So they're both in front of each other shifting laterally.

Yes, with one ball each. So what we are working here, we are working on ball handling. Okay, our goal is to work on ball handling and move our feet. Okay, then here the goal here is 1v1 with the ball. Okay? At the same time, we work in levels.

Okay? So because then when we arrange on 3-point line, this guy decide to attack and he can be the guy on this side and he get the ball in his hand. He can—

Playing defense with the ball.

So here he move, He work on his feet to turn his hip.

Yeah. Sprint, recover.

Sprint, recover, and give a contact to him, maybe with the ball, because he has the constraint to have the ball in his hands. Or he has to make a little pocket because if he want to attack here after the shift, or he move too much on this side, or he has a front foot to attack, he can change between the legs or change and attack the other side.

And here the same, if you are ready to to change your feet position and run back. These are— and also you work here on finish, finishes, because the defense is coming back with the ball to guard you. So you don't give a finish, you have to finish like this, but—

You're creating the situation.

You cannot do one because—

You say 2 feet off the glass.

Yeah.

One hand.

You can force also.

Yeah.

But with one simple drill—

There's a lot in there.

Yes.

A lot of details.

You work in a lot of things, but The good thing is that these repetitions are repetitions without repetition because they are, every one-on-one is never the same.

Amazing. I love it. And that's, that's like the level of specificity and intentionality in terms of understanding why doing that activity. For me, the, the thing that really stood out with that segment was just the level of intentionality in terms of, you know, exactly why.

you're doing that activity. And that's something I often say to coaches, like, if you're struggling to get your head coach to maybe embrace some of these ideas, one really good suggestion is on your practice plan, put a column and put intention, like, why are we doing this activity?

And that's because, you know, it's so clear now that you have a very clear understanding as why this is done, what you're getting out of it. I think if, if you don't have that from an activity, Think deeply about why you're doing it, right?

Yeah. No, that's, yeah, everything starts from the game. You need to know the game, know the details, and then with these details, with these ideas you have, you watch the player, you see what he misses or what he, what he has, and then you create something that is real, more real than you can to the game.

So this is, this is my last question for you, Ali, and this was something I remember I was saying to you once on the phone, you know, why do more coaches— what can we do better to help them understand CLA? And you said to me, well, the hard thing is you actually have to know basketball very deeply to be effective with the CLA.

Yes, you're right.

And that— can you expand on what you meant by that?

Yes. No, it's tough to really understand CLA because CLA gives you a lot of freedom and there's nothing like That you cannot do on the court.

Yeah.

But you, you have the tools that are the constraints that are really difficult to use if you really don't understand what is going on, on the, on the court about feet, time, space, interaction.

Yeah.

Tactics.

Yes.

So the, the, the, the good thing is that if you use CLA, you, you make, makes you better because you must study the games. You, It's not about, okay, let's do this because one great coach did it. That is good because always the great coaches, they do something important because they are great and they have experience.

But when you go on the court, if you only copy, you really don't understand what you are doing. And if you don't, the most important thing are the goals. So if you don't have clear in your mind what your goals are, it's tough to be effective.

Yeah.

and to arrive to an improvement or to reach your goals in short time. If you don't have clear what your goals are, you will need a lot of time to have some improvement.

100%.

It's all about the goals and about the knowledge, but to know the goals, you need to know the game. That's it.

Ali, a big thanks for joining us today and taking time from your national team camp. Thank you, George.

My pleasure.

And also a big thanks to your great contribution in the book, a really cool section on, on these ideas and, and how you're applying them.

So always fun. Big thanks from the old time to now.

Love it. Thanks so much, man.

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