Understanding the CLA Terminology with Rob Newson

This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast, and I'm your host, Alex Sarama. This is the podcast where we help coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to create the ultimate resource to help make sense of how contemporary skill acquisition ideas can be applied within the basketball world.

Throughout the podcast, we'll unpack how an ecological dynamics framework alters our perspective If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, then this is the podcast for you. Before we start with today's episode, we wanted to wish you a very happy new year.

Since releasing our Transforming Basketball website, it's been great to hear from so many of you on how these ideas are helping make better sense of the game. of the potential for evidence-based ideas to be introduced at all levels of the basketball world. We are incredibly grateful for your support, and we wish you all the best for the year ahead.

Enjoy today's episode. Welcome back to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. I'm joined today by my friend Rob Newsome, and Rob and I were actually colleagues at the NBA several years ago. And it was unusual because we had 2 Brits working in the international basketball operations team.

Rob was in Asia at the time, but we never really actually got the chance to properly know each other. But really, over the last year and a half, we've got to know each other very well. And I thought, Rob, you'd be an excellent guest to have on the podcast.

So great you're here. Thanks for jumping on.

Appreciate it, Alex. Always enjoyed talking to you. And, you know, I'm just very thankful for having an opportunity to chop it up with you.

Absolutely. I wanted to start with— we got lunch last week in London and, uh, we were catching up nice, enjoying the sunshine in Stratford. And you started with a great story about something you were reading recently. We were talking about Buddhism and Eastern philosophy, and I thought that was a really nice segment into a lot of the things I'm trying to deal with at Transforming Basketball in terms of coach education and development.

Could you just explain the story exactly, kind of as How you described it to me last week.

All right. Well, I have the book first. The book I'm reading is called The Diamond Cutter. I don't know if you can see that. The Diamond Sutra is one of the oldest Buddhist sutras. And this book is actually largely about business, basically making a success of yourself and how you do that.

But there is a story in the book, and, but it comes, it's an ancient story from when the Buddha was giving teachings himself. And so the Buddha is about to give a teaching and there's lots of students and monks that gather around. And before he gives the teaching, he says, be careful of a problem that I want to tell you about, that you don't fall into any of these traps.

The problem is of the 3 cups. And I think it was the 3 bowls actually back then, but it's more useful now to use a coffee cup. So I have a coffee cup here, luckily. The first problem is the upside-down cup. All right.

Now, if the cup is upside down, You cannot pour anything into it. He's talking about coming to a teacher to receive a teaching and coming with your mind full in a way where you know everything already. You are coming to maybe either challenge the teaching of the teacher or just remind yourself that you already know everything.

So the first problem is if you come as an upside-down cup, nothing can get in. And this is the problem which we as basketball coaches will face with players and possibly other coaches and parents at some point in our lives. The second problem is the problem of the cracked cup.

And the cracked cup, when you pour something in, the stuff will just come out, right? So in our language, in English, it will be in one ear and out the other. And today on the court, I think I experienced this problem, but it's a real one.

Like, ever since I was in Iceland, when I really started my coaching journey, like, this was one of the big things that we were trying to get our players to do was take notes and to remember what we were doing the day before, the week before.

So the second problem is the cracked cup, where you come to practice or you are learning about something, but you're not really paying attention and you don't try to retain the information and it just goes out. And then the last problem is the one of the dirty cup.

And this one is about mixing different philosophies. And I think that the reason I was speaking to you about it was because it was very interesting for from my perspective on you, where you are very much about the constraint-led approach. You are coming in with a new philosophy, and this is a very, very much a well-rounded philosophy that I see it as well in myself and also other people where they go, yeah, I like that, but I only like this piece of it, and I want to put it into my philosophy and take other pieces

from over here. And I think there is a conversation to be had about doing stuff like that at certain times. But what you do a very good job of explaining is that this is a philosophy that is going in a particular direction. And if you just pick and choose, you could miss the whole point of the philosophy itself.

So in that teaching, obviously Buddhism is a way of reaching enlightenment and getting out of the wheel, right, of life where you could be in there forever. And one of the ways to do that is to follow the philosophy to its end. It has many crossovers in today's society.

And for basketball coaches, I think it's also very useful. I haven't told the players yet this season, but I'm getting ready to try to present it to them in a way where they can actually understand it.

I love it, Rob. I mean, it's a great segment into what we're going to speak about. And I think everything kind of we're doing at Transforming Basketball, just in terms of it's not easy sometimes when you're coming across with very different ideas. And I think it's such a nice kind of metaphor.

What I wanted to use that to bridge into next was your journey as a coach, because you were a successful coach before you even encountered the CLA. You had very prestigious jobs in Asia, and obviously you were working for the NBA running programs throughout the region.

And then, you know, you've, you've always struck me as someone who's curious. You came out to Italy to college prep at the start of last season, and then I think ever since then, you know, we've been in touch, I'd say, regularly. And it's just been amazing to see the content you've been putting out, like really, really embracing the CLA.

So how have you avoided the closed, the upside-down cup, so to speak, and really adopted an ecological approach using the CLA purposefully, etc.?

Well, I mean, I've been very lucky to be somebody who is, like you say, quite curious and I enjoy learning. And also my life, I've been into different countries and had to live there. And some of those countries are quite difficult to live in if you don't have an open mind.

So the journey with you and the CLA and the ecological dynamics was When you left the NBA, everyone was like, what are you doing? Like, why would you do that? And you went off and you went to a couple of different places and then obviously arrived in Italy.

And so I was watching from Hong Kong at the time and then Vietnam, and I was like, okay, this guy's from England. He's made some noise in the UK at a very young age and then obviously been in the NBA very young and then left.

And it's like, well, okay, there may be something going on here. And then more and more noise was coming through social media and my interactions with you indirectly and directly. And then it came to the point just before the start of, I think, a season 2 years ago where I was like, I need to go over there and find out if what I think is happening is really happening.

Because I had the sense that you were doing something quite important. And it's almost as soon as I arrived, I was like, oh, okay, I was right. Something is happening here which is very special. And it was partly the academy itself where you had created something which was quite unique and a different model from the typical go to the States, especially for English players.

But it was also the way you were teaching, the way you were speaking to the players. And also you had a guest there that week that I came to visit in Jamie Smith. And so the whole thing was like an exhibition of the CLA and your approach.

And it was a big eye-opener. I actually had somebody with me as well who came, who didn't really realize what they were doing. They didn't realize what they were getting into. They're just kind of tagging along. And in the airport in Gatwick, as we were about to get to fly, I was telling him, listen, if what I think is happening is really happening, this is going to be unbelievable.

And it— 7 days was incredible. I ended up bringing a player over a couple of months later to be a part of it, just to experience it again. Like, it was amazing. And you deserve a lot of credit for creating an experience there for those kids that were a part of that, which was definitely unique.

Uh, Rob, I really appreciate that. I think it was— we had so many good conversations that week. You know, you spoke about kind of like a movement happening, and this is what I'm excited about because I think it is a movement. A lot of people don't realize yet that this is happening and this is going on.

For you and, you know, your— all the experiences, perspectives you've had as a coach, what made this so exciting and so different? Was it something in particular you saw, just Kind of the whole atmosphere from that environment?

Yeah, that's a good question. I suppose I would say, I mean, it's not like this is from Mars. Like, this is a thing which has been happening in different disciplines and in basketball, you know, in, in pieces and different places. But the way you presented it was a bit like abrasive.

It was like, you know, you were coming with it. And so what intrigued me was it's a little bit confusing. If once you get past the first bit, which is what are we really talking about here? Like, how— why is this different to other approaches or previous ways that— or ways that I'm already doing, right?

And you come up against— there is some literature to get into, you know, there is a couple of books to read, there is a little bit to get into in order to understand really what is going on and why it is different to traditional approaches, and even some people who might consider themselves to be already doing this but aren't really, you know.

So that for me was exciting because— do you know who Ido Portal is?

Yes, I've heard of him.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Yeah, so he's like the king of movement, uh, nothing to do with basketball. It was all about being handstands, right? Yeah, it's like all kinds of being a mover as a human being. Anyway, I heard a podcast of his many years ago when he was talking about learning and he talked about tugging on the string.

Like, so once you start pulling on the string, more and more and more and more and more is coming. And so that's what I started to do. Like, I started to get into some of the research. I asked you, can you send me some podcasts?

Can I, can I listen a little bit? And, you know, so I found out about Rob Gray, read the book, you know, went to the Constraints-Led Approach book by Ian Renshaw and started to really try to understand what's behind this stuff and Is it something that fits with other things or is it just something I've got to go like all in on and stuff like that?

And then I started to experiment and I suppose again, to come back to Jamie, like Jamie's stuff as well was so exciting to me because it fit with my— I think one of the core pieces of my philosophy is to try to bring together S&C and holistic training and holistic methods, not just about being skill development and just about tech and tac.

Like, I'm, I've always been interested in the whole development of the athlete, about rest and recovery, about S&C, and how can that actually be incorporated? You know, how does testing actually help us understand whether kids are getting better or not? And Jamie was able to bring that onto the floor and do things where I was like, finally, like, uh, somebody knows what they're doing and is bringing everything to life.

You know, so it was both of all of that stuff at the same time, I guess.

Absolutely. I think that's something we speak a lot about, like integrating these silos. So yeah, yeah, you said that on Wednesday.

Yeah, yeah.

Like you, and you see it everywhere, like all these organizations. And it's actually the higher the level of basketball, the more siloed it is where everyone's working so in such a fragmented manner. And it's, it's so easy to bridge the gap if we just think, you know, more logically and we start to apply the CLA as kind of like a shared framework.

So I guess one of the questions next— I want to get back to Jamie's stuff in a minute, Rob, but I think one of the many reasons I wanted to get you on is because I, I feel like more coaches need to hear about what it's really like to go in on the CLA and try it.

Were there any kind of hurdles or barriers which you really kind of had to overcome early on as you were going through the literature and you were really starting to get to grips with the CLA?

Yeah, the language. So in this, the first story I told in, in this episode about the diamond cutter, I've also been getting into the videos of the author of this book, and they're doing a lot of translations of ancient texts into English. And so he talks a lot about the waiter test when they are translating words.

And so the, the waiter test is if you have a word that you're trying to translate, and let's say it's like Dynamical systems. Yeah, if you take that to a waiter and you ask him, do you know what dynamical systems are? They're not going to understand.

And so this was the big challenge. There was so much new language there— affordances, the landscape, right? The constraints-led approach— what is a constraint? You know, there's lots of different words that you come up against when you are starting to get into the reading the book and some of the people talking about it, which I think, you know, we're busy, coaches are busy, and we're on the floor and we're working and we're trying to help our kids or our athletes.

But it's a weird thing, isn't it? Like, we're the people saying that we know what we're doing and we know what is best for the athletes. And yet sometimes I get the sense that many of us aren't learners, right? And we've just decided that we've finished learning and we know everything now.

And so, and I, you know, I'm guilty of that. Like, I'm still doing things which I did 15 years ago, and some of that stuff maybe isn't the right thing to do now. I have to make time for myself to make sure I keep learning.

And so once you get through that, once you can start to understand the language, then it's a key that unlocks all the doors in that stuff. I would say that's the biggest challenge is you've got to be a little bit persistent. You know, I bugged you a little bit to explain some stuff and ask some questions, and I think that's also— if you can find somebody who is a little further ahead, you, you ask, well, what does this mean?

Like, what is an affordance? What are they talking about? And we make it so that you can understand, just brings it to, you know, your reality of on the floor and how do you then use a constraint and create an affordance landscape to push athletes to make decisions.

Absolutely. I think that was so nice, so well explained, Rob. Would you say that, because this is something I'm getting at, I personally believe that understanding the language makes a big difference because Just from what I remember when I went through the process too, I think when I didn't properly understand the language, I wasn't benefiting from the CLA nearly to a level even close to where I'm at now.

So would you say that when you understand a language, it's kind of just like an aha moment and the way you look at practice and the way you design things, it just unlocks everything?

Yes, it's probably not like an instant moment, but you have to keep going. If you have a look at this stuff, but first of all, you've got to get past just taking things off social media, right? If you see something on social media and it irks you a little bit, you know, like we might see one of your videos and you're saying, don't do this, do this.

Like, you shouldn't be doing this, you should do this. You'd be like, what are you talking about? Like, don't tell me that. I've been doing this for 25 years. But there's something there, right? So anything there that, if that annoys you, you should probably look at it.

So go somewhere else, right? And look at it and go into it a little bit. And then you need to make a decision on, okay, is this worth going down the rabbit hole on or not? And then as you go down, you— that's like I said, the first barrier is there is some language there which is quite difficult to understand.

But if you be persistent, then you get past the stage where you're still trying to learn the language in order to understand the concept. Once you're happy with the language, it opens up the concept. And then you can explore. That's how I would say it.

Like each of these difficult pieces of language is something, you know, keep working on it, keep working on it. It's like learning basketball and you just like keep going, keep going, put you in a different situation, find this word in a different book or a different context.

And then as you understand that more, you'll be able to explore the concept more instead of just taking what you saw on a video and copying it and not really understanding what you're doing.

That's exactly it. Like we spoke about, there's no copy and paste. And if I say to coaches, when you're at the stage where you're creating your own activities for a reason, then you know you're on the right path and you're using the CLA.

If you're still just following the recipes, you're not there yet, but stay at it because you've got to start somewhere.

Yeah.

You know, I love watching what you've done now. You share it on social media and just seeing your warmups with your men's team last year and some of your practice activities. Could you just share, Rob, you know, maybe some of your favorite ideas of what practice with you now looks like when you're using the CLA, whether it's some of Jamie's ideas in athletic performance or warmups, actually on the court for basketball?

So I guess probably 3 or 4 components. One would be warmups from Jamie, which is all like including perception and action, right? So including decision-making in everything that we do. And, but it's like silly stuff. Like it looks a bit silly sometimes. So one of my favorite ones is one-on-one rock-paper-scissors.

Everybody's got a tail and the winner of the rock-paper-scissors gets to play offense and the loser is on defense. And so now you are, you're having to move in a way which is avoiding the defense and you're having to finish, you know, with or without contact.

We don't know, like there is a lot of unknown things there. And then there are a couple of other games. A lot of them involve tails, which sometimes the players, they feel a bit silly, but they're so effective. Like, cross the highway is a game I use all the time because it's so much fun.

And I mean, it just works, man.

What is it, Rob? I'd love to hear about it.

So you have a box, like a quite a big box, let's say. It's like the lane. And let's say we've got 10 players. So everyone's got a tail except 2 guys that are inside the lane. Okay, so now you can cross the highway from the baseline through the foul line, or from the foul line through the baseline.

And through either side, but you've got to exit the opposite way that you came in and you have to keep your tail. So the guys in the middle, they have to take a tail to get out of, of the highway, so to speak.

So you've got 2 defense in the middle, 8 offense. They can go at any time, they can go around the outside and then they can go in wherever they want, but they've got to get across.

Love it. So that's such a fun game. I'm going to try that.

It's so much like, you know, you'll see 2 guys arrive at each other and one try to get by the other. And the other one reach around like trying to steal the basketball or something like that. And the guy will spin and, you know, you'll just see all of that stuff.

And then you can put a basketball into that for everyone. So everyone's dribbling. So there is a progression. And this is just an easy one, which it hits every time. You know, there isn't really anything you need to do with it. Don't do it every day because it, you know, but you can come back to it over and over and over again and it works.

So. Stuff like that in the warmup. And then like differential learning shooting is something I enjoy playing with, especially in the season, because I don't want to touch mechanics, especially in the season. I'm still having a fight with this internally.

Well, we'll have more conversations about that over the year. And I was exactly the same, Rob. Like, yeah, it was my first kind of year and a half I was applying the CLA and other things. And then shooting was my last hurdle to overcome.

And, you know, my last 3 years I've been really confident, but it takes time.

Sure. But even just as an activity itself, like, if we don't have to— we can park the, like, is this helping players be better shooters right now? Or like, you can park that one. Yeah, it is. It can be just about movement, just being a more fluid mover, you know, freeing up your degrees of freedom.

Like, just get these kids to move in different ways. And also, like, I like to try to help them understand what we're doing as well. Because it's helpful for them to like just also not think I'm a crazy person. Like, so differential learning shooting, we will put them into different situations for shooting.

It might be every shot you shoot has to be a different distance from the basket and don't make it uniform. You know, you can shoot super close or super, super far and everywhere in between. Shoot 5 and change, use different stances, put different spins on the ball, a different height on the ball on every shot.

We talk about, you know, a few different ones. So it's just different stuff like that, which ultimately helps the players to get more control over the basketball, which is, I mean, essentially that's what you need, right?

Yeah.

And then we might get into situations, right? So we are playing 2-on-2 or 3-on-3 or 4-on-4, and either it's half court or it's half court, full court, limited possessions or something like this. And we are in some kind of situational work. Like, very good examples are like 2-on-2 stack, working on blast cuts into gets and things like this.

It's very good for teaching. I mean, I work with juniors most of the time, right? And this is probably where my heart is now, so, and has always been. So for teaching players about decision-making, about how to be a point guard, about timing and spacing, like 2-on-2 blast cut stuff, and then push-pull.

Yeah.

Like, this is like very quite simple stuff, but there is a depth to that. 100%, you know, is beautiful to work on with kids from 10 to seniors.

It's stuff you don't know, even that, you know, it's simple, but you don't see at the youth level. Why? Because we're seeing passing cut or like motion offense.

Yeah.

And I know at the same time, Rob, you've gone like all in on conceptual offense too. And do you think that's just been I think obviously they go— it goes hand in hand with obviously using a CLA, given that conceptual offense, the way I kind of advocate for conceptual offense to be played, it's informed obviously by an ecological dynamics framework.

Yeah, for sure.

And on the— just on the shooting piece, it's really interesting, Rob. I'm glad you raised that. I think when I found the L, that was kind of my big aha moment with shooting, because previously I was only thinking in CLA terms and I was good, but I was realizing that it wasn't maybe impacting players' self-organizational tendencies enough.

So for instance, if there is a suboptimal shooter, you know, yes, obviously using the CLA, it's gonna definitely make them shoot quicker and be more adaptive shooting in different ways.

Yeah.

But sometimes, you know, I felt like we needed something more drastic and I wasn't willing to go back to the form shooting stuff and all that. So then when I came across Schoellhorn's work, and I remember I spent a whole Christmas once, I just went through 3 weeks, I accessed like every single research paper that was done on shooting, but a lot of it was information processing.

So it was very unclear. And then I came across DL, and then it just made sense. I think when you use it strategically, so for instance, if you see a player has some type of thing in the shot that you think might be suboptimal from a self-organizational standpoint, just using DL to maybe target that part of their coordination without saying, you know, change the technique, this is how you must shoot.

I might do something where naturally they just start to get out of that more naturally and just see if it makes a difference. And I think that's where DL can be really useful.

Yeah, I think what you're speaking about here is pointing to a question that you raised earlier. It's like, what are the obstacles to understanding this? You understand this more than me. There's no question about that, but that's okay. I'm exploring, in the case of this shooting stuff, like I'm exploring it and I'm not quite there yet, I would say, with connecting, identifying the potential issue with a shooter's form.

And creating or placing constraints or doing some kind of differential learning shooting to address that. Yeah, I'm at— with the shooting, I'm more exploring the space and seeing what happens when we do this or when we do that. But that's okay. Like, this is completely normal.

You know, you've, you've read a lot more of the research than I have. You've spent a lot more time looking at it than I have. This can be in any discipline. That shouldn't discourage anybody from going into it, testing it, having a look, and maybe not quite understanding or not liking the ideas, and still, but still trying them out.

Just go into it and have a look, and then, you know, see what you find out and use as many other people as you can that you think might be a little bit ahead of you, because it isn't a competition.

It's not.

Right? It's not a competition like who can be the best at CLA. Ultimately, we're all, we're all searching for the same goal. Like, we're all trying to help Players and young people be successful. So, you know, let's just have that attitude towards it.

So true. It's like finite versus infinite games. Like, it's— there's no such thing as winning who's the best coach, who's the CLA. It's everyone learns from each other. And it's like what we're trying to do, Rob, is obviously— and you're part of that— just through Transforming, we're trying to create this community of coaches who are passionate about the CLA differential learning and create a network where we can all learn from each other and actually have a vehicle to do that and then help others.

Learn it. And it's like every time we catch up, every time we speak, we text, you know, I'm learning just as much from you as you are from me because you have different perspectives on things. And for instance, just the way you kind of talk about the CLA, for me, I've stolen a lot of that and used it in clinics because you, you now having gone through that process, you really break it down in a way that I think is very practical for other coaches to understand.

And I think that's a great message for coaches all over the world, that it's, it's not about being the best. It's everyone can learn from each other in this.

Yeah, I would, I would say, I mean, my personal experience of the energy around you, personally with you, I always get the sense that something cool is happening. The energy I get from other people about you is that, what is this guy doing?

Like, he's, he's messing everything up. Unfortunately, there's a lot of pain in change, right? So I guess all I want to say is let's not continue along, especially in England, let's not continue along this path of everybody is a competitor and essentially the enemy.

Again, we're all trying to do the same thing. We all want the same for ourselves and our athletes, and that is to do well. And so that doesn't need to be a competition. Okay, yes, we're going to play and I'm going to try to beat you, but you know that we're still aiming at the same stuff.

And so however it's presented to you or however you've come across it, like, try to get past the initial like reaction or any kind of personal thing that you might have with it. Go and have a look at the actual stuff because that's how my opinion on it started to really go, okay, there is something here that I need to try to go down and explore and see if it works for me.

And I'm still doing that so that I'm ultimately— for coaches, that's what we need to do. And you know, that's what I do with my kids as well. Like, this parenting is the same. I have no idea what I'm doing. You know, CLA sometimes It helps me, you know, I'm trying to create situations where I'm trying to push my kids to try to make decisions instead of telling them what to do.

Rob, I love it. It's great advice for coaches in any country. I really think you hit the nail on the head with that. So it's not the last coaches will be hearing of you. You don't know it yet, but I'm going to rope you in to help with some blogs and content at Transforming Basketball.

But where can coaches find more information about you and check out some of the ideas you've shared over the last year or so using the CLA?

Yeah, so if you want to connect with me, I would do— go to my website, robnewson.com. Like, that's, uh, hopefully longer term is where I would like to put everything. But I have some kind of weird relationship with Instagram, and at the moment I'm trying to kind of stay away from it and just focus on, you know, the things that are in front of me actually.

But I have some stuff out there, so if you want to go to TikTok or Instagram I think TikTok is @robnewsome84, and then Instagram is certified.basketball.coach. That's my, my tag. So you could go check me out there, obviously send me a message if you want.

Hopefully we can build good relationships. I do just want to talk about Jamie just for one minute.

Oh, please. I should— that's my fault. I should have done—

Sorry, man, but just like, just to open the, the can of worms, you know, if anybody's listening, go check him out, right? The Year of Strength. Go and have a look at that because it's going to hopefully bring a new understanding of S&C to basketball coaches that don't have S&C coaches at all.

And you can bring all of the S&C, all of the things that might help players athletically be better on the basketball court, and you can do it all on the court. And then secondly, hopefully it's going to open up conversations between coaches and S&C coaches because there is a lot of conversations that need to be had there.

In order to, like you say, you know, break down the silos and integrate more of what we're doing. And ultimately, Jamie's stuff is fun like that. Some people, some young players, like older guys that don't know me very well, and we do some of that stuff, they're like, oh, this is weird.

I don't want to play tennis with my hand, you know, like, but most people, they end up just smiling and having a good time. And they don't realize that they, you know, they activated something and they've prepared themselves in a way which is representative of what they're about to do, and in that way have really gotten ready for practice or made an improvement, and they didn't even realize it.

They actually just enjoyed themselves. And if people can enjoy themselves, you know, training, then, you know, this is great.

So true, Rob. My marketing team at Transforming Basketball, they keep telling me I'm doing a terrible job. So I guess you've given me a perfect— you've provided me with the affordance to do a perfect Shameless plug here, but Jamie and I, we've been, we've been working on a workshop over the last several weeks.

So we've been speaking obviously a lot, and it's all about integrating basketball and athletic performance in a way that we've never seen before. So it's basically going to be something crazy, like 100 different activities that we're both using, and then we're kind of sharing how it's all integrated.

So it's great. I think, you know, it's, it's definitely the Year of Strength. Jamie Smith, he's a name. Any basketball coach should check out immediately after this. So Rob, just thanks so much for jumping on, man. I really appreciate it. Look forward to catching up soon.

Yeah, as always, man. Appreciate it. Thank you.

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