George is joined by JP Nerbun, author of The Culture Captain, to discuss how coaches and athletes can develop stronger leadership through self-awareness, reflection, and…
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In this episode, George is joined by JP Nerbun, author of The Culture Captain, to discuss how coaches and athletes can develop stronger leadership through self-awareness, reflection, and practical application. JP breaks down his four-level leadership framework—know yourself, lead yourself, lead others, and lead the team and explains why leadership development is less about knowledge and more about doing the work.
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Welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. On today's episode, we have a return guest, JP Nerbun. JP was on the podcast right when I took over as host. And I think if you guys had listened to that podcast, you'll remember JP was actually my basketball coach.
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And it's so interesting and really exciting for me to reconnect after all these years. And today we're going to talk about a new book that he released. So JP, welcome back to the show.
George, thanks for having me back, buddy.
You know, new book that you just released. I have it up here as well, The Culture Captain. And it's a 4-level framework for athletes. Know yourself, lead yourself, lead others, lead the team. And we're going to get into how you wrote this book, the process for it.
And specifically these 4, I guess, you know, what do you want to call them? Framework, these 4 pieces of You know, guides that have built that framework. But specifically, I just want to read a quote from Dusty May, who read the book and had this to say about it.
This book gives athletes the ultimate roadmap to becoming the type of leader every coach wants on their team. Can you just speak a little bit about that?
Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, I've been fortunate to have gotten connected with Dusty back in 2020 and, you know, kind of witness and be on the early part of his journey. And done some work to support him in his leadership and in his culture.
He's an absolute, just one of the most curious people that I've gotten to know and work with as a coach. You know, so it's kind of humbling when he reads some of my earlier books, like The Culture System, and he's able to take that and get curious to want to learn more.
And I know that's kind of how he operates, whether it's reading Doug Lemov's book, A Coach's Guide to Teaching, or, you know, some of my books or other people's books, is he wants to go deeper. He wants to truly understand. How to apply those things.
I think that separates a lot of different, you know, leaders. I think some leaders don't read at all. Some leaders do read, but then they just kind of pile through books. They read, read, read. They don't really apply. And there's others that go, how can I apply this?
Dusty's obviously in a situation where he can reach out to authors or people like myself. You know, I work as an executive coach and kind of a culture coach consultant. And so, yeah, he's able to reach out and kind of go deeper. And so he appreciates some of the stuff that we're trying to do here as far as just simplify.
through frameworks and systems, the impact that we're trying to have within our culture and with our leadership.
Yeah. And I know it's tailored more to athletes, but this is as applicable to coaches as it is to players. You mentioned something, apply. How can we apply these principles? Because it's not enough to know the information. You also have to apply it in your practice and all your environments.
And we'll speak a little bit about this, but what can you tell us specifically about If, you know, reading your book or any other leadership book or culture book, what's the best way to actually apply it practically?
Yeah, this book is all about application. You know, how it came from is application. I know your guests, you know, or so your listeners will, they're all about, you know, constraints-led approach. And, you know, I think the CLA, you know, you look at that approach, I know a little bit about basketball coaching.
No, I'm not really, I've been in it for that, you know, in many, many years. But the idea is that You're not seeing in the traditional game or drills model, you're practicing, but you don't see it show up in a game, right? You're working on these skills, but you don't see athletes to be able to apply it.
I would say the same is true in a lot of leadership and culture circles. We teach our athletes, whether it's through a book reading or some seminar or workshop or motivational speech, we try to teach them some concept around giving hard conversations and giving people feedback, right?
Like, you know, we gotta hold each other accountable here. We, so we give 'em this tool, this concept, and then we just expect them to go and apply it. This book comes from me actually coaching athletes through the, you know, application of these tools of how to have hard conversations, of how to, you know, be better at little affirmations and celebrations of your teammates down to, you know, just all the different elements.
When I talk about, when I mean coaching, I don't mean just teaching and telling them. I mean, actually through conversations, helping to uncover what are some of the limiting beliefs that someone might have around having hard conversations. So for instance, if you say, this athlete needs to be better about holding another athlete accountable if he wants to be a really good leader or she wants to be a really good leader.
Well, what are the limiting beliefs around that? Some athletes as well, I don't know how, or someone that's like, who am I? Who am I to give someone hard feedback? The others is, I'm not a good enough player, or I make too many mistakes myself, right?
Like, I don't work hard enough, so I can't be calling out their effort, right? So there's always a limit of belief. So by coaching people, you start asking questions, you help them unpack, and then you can start to help equip them with tools to overcome some of those obstacles.
And that's really kind of the work you're doing. So that's the work the book is based on, that work.
And you've interviewed over 100 athletes, high-level, elite-level athletes. What was that process like? Is it, you know, you're having a conversation with them. What kind of questions are you asking? How are you intentionally looking for the answers to be able to write this book?
Yeah, like interview would be probably not the best word for actually what those conversations look like. We have some self-reflection because everything comes down to figuring out first off, what is their level of awareness? So let's just say, you know, selflessness or mental fitness or hard conversations, like giving feedback, like any of those 3 concepts, right?
I can say, okay, this is what it looks like exceptionally, and this is what it looks like, you know, like at a round 1. So we get players to reflect on their behaviors in that tool or concept and say, okay, where do you see yourself?
And then it's like whether they rate themselves at a 5 out of 10, 8 out of 10, it's going, okay, what are we going to do to move the needle there? So you start to get them to reflect on What it would look like to be better in that area.
And then we start to unpack the beliefs that actually keep them from taking that selflessness and being that, you know, 10 outta 10 selfless player or being 10 outta 10 and having the hard conversations or celebrating their teammates, whatever these types of leadership behavior concepts are.
So we're really getting them, this all starts with awareness and saying, okay, this is where I am, this is where I want to go, and this is what is getting in the way of me closing the gap from where I am to where I want to be.
And it's really about asking questions to help them and then sharing occasionally a tool, a concept, a story that helps get them there. And so that's all very relevant with obviously within the book because it's half fable, half nonfiction. So we take in these over 100 conversations I've had with over 100 athletes through conversations within team settings, within individual one-on-ones.
I've been coaching 2 athletes that were considered potentially the best in their sport. Gaelic football and rugby in the world, okay, that I've had conversations and worked with these athletes down to the youth athletes, right? Like I'm going as young as 12 years of age that I've been coaching through these frameworks.
And I based that fable part of the book is based upon those conversations. It's a story of a young athlete that is trying to learn how to be a leader and be more effective over 4 seasons. And then the second half of the book within each of those chapters, is a nonfiction.
It is the stories of the elite leaders, the Tom Bradys of the world that have shown exceptional leadership in those areas. So the readers get to see both of those concepts be applied within the everyday athlete down to kind of these elite stories.
I want to ask you specifically about the— you spoke about youth-level athletes to elite-level athletes. Is it harder to use this book and try to apply these concepts to a younger athlete? Who is maybe less self-aware as opposed to older, you know, professional athletes who have had plenty of conversations like this in the past, but maybe have never, you know, taken the route to start applying some of these concepts to level up their leadership.
It is not about level, right? You could be amateur level, you could be elite professional athlete. The level is irrelevant in my work. It is the desire to be vulnerable, the desire and the willingness to do the work. And the work is simply showing up, being vulnerable, and thinking, reflecting.
And so many of these things that you see within the book, within the story, then there's a guide on how to apply these conversations. Let's just say something around, you know, purpose, you know, and values is, you know, let's say there's one activity where I ask, you know, an athlete like, well, what's most important to you as an athlete?
And then an athlete responds to that. And then I might ask that again. We'll go, well, what's most important about that? And, you know, and it's an athlete might say, well, the most important thing to me is winning. Well, what's most important to you about winning?
And that is a hard question now for them to answer. Most important to me about winning, it can go a lot of different ways. So some athlete might say, well, it's about being the best that I can possibly be. I go, oh, and what's most important to you about being the best that you can possibly be?
He's like, well, I don't like to feel like I could have given more. I could have done more. All of a sudden we went from a very surface level answer of winning. I'm all about winning to actually I'm all about reaching my potential.
And then I might say, you know, could you lose and still not, you know, but feel like you reached your potential? Can you ever imagine that scenario? Somebody plays, oh no, no, I can't see that. And others be like, But yeah, no, actually I could.
There's this moment where like I actually laid it all out and we lost the game, but like I felt great after that. And so now you start to have perspective shift, but an athlete has to be willing to be vulnerable and do the work to be able to have that shift.
And I've done this with 14-year-olds that are willing to do the work. And I'm trying to do this with 24-year-olds in elite sport that will really struggle to want to like do this work.
You know, that's amazing. I always find it, it's very, it is very challenging. And I think this is the job of the coach, right? To kind of dig deeper and deeper, not only in, you know, just the culture piece, but anything like, if, you know, why are we doing this on defense?
Why are we switching aggressively on defense? And just really make sure that the athlete understands, you know, not just a surface level answer. Oh, because it's how we play. It's how we cover the pick and roll. No. Well, it's, you know, because we really want to disrupt the ball handler.
We really want to be aggressive on the ball. And then it's like, you know, Why do we want to do that? Right? We want to speed up the pace. And, you know, but it's just, I think, super important that players understand, like, deeper and deeper into the why of why things are happening or why coaches choose to, you know, apply certain principles.
And more importantly, just get them to think critically.
There's something in there that I think is really actually interesting that is very like something small and subtle. So, so much of the fable part of the story, and many people have read the fable type book. Like a John Gordon type fable type thing, right?
But this fable's different. This isn't about necessarily a story of like where this athlete wins or loses games or this journey. It's all about the fable is just a way for me to show athletes and coaches how they could actually think through these types of things, right?
It's them doing, it's this athlete doing the work, right? Between practices, between games, none of the fables actually, actually The game. But one thing in there about understanding why is in executive coaching, we actually don't— when I work with clients, I don't ask ever.
I rarely use the word why. Why did you do that? Well, I always focus on, well, what are some of your reasons for that? By moving from why to what, we evoke less defensiveness and we invite people into maybe engage a little bit more into potential reasons The thinking, the rationale behind that, or some of the emotional reasons behind it.
And I think this is important to understand. And when we ask why, we, it oftentimes, sometimes gives us the focus on more singular answers. So I don't know if that makes any sense. I don't know if that applies or might help your coaches, but like, if you're even, you're coaching an athlete and like, say using CLA, you know, hey, what were some of the reasons you made that decision?
And I think it could actually help. get them to be less defensive and get them to think more critically.
No, absolutely. And I think that even for myself personally, I think that's a big, that's a great lesson in finding different ways. Because I think that is one of the things that happens, right? When we ask cold call players and it's, ask why and they get defensive.
They're like, oh, I made a mistake. Coach is calling me out. But then it's, what are maybe some different ways that we can go about that? So that's great. I want to talk about this framework. Know yourself, lead yourself, lead others, lead the team.
I guess, how did you come up with this framework? But also, in terms of the know yourself, how do you think players and coaches alike can help discover their coaching values? Because I always find my personal values are different to what I want my players to do on the court.
They're not vastly different, but they're not the, you know, in the same priority. So I'm just curious how you would go about, you know, asking questions to guide that learning.
Yeah. You're saying in the second one was how to figure out our personal values?
Or our coaching values.
Let's start with the first one then, like, which is how did this framework come about? I get the value of acronyms, you know, like things that represent different things, but acronyms sometimes drive me crazy because we think, I think we take like a cool word, like You know, even just like our mascot of like the lion and it's like, okay, lion stands for, you know, love, intentionality.
And it's like, we sometimes force things into acronyms, right? So I'm not always the biggest fan of acronyms. This framework is not something that where I was like, all right, let's start with 4 levels and then let's figure out what those 4 levels will be.
I literally have spent over a decade in executive coaching. I've spent over a decade as a basketball coach. And then at that time, I'm just constantly having conversations. I've had my podcast for nearly 10 years, 500 episodes. I've had conversations with hundreds of leaders, coaches, you know, all these people and athletes.
I've spent a lot of time in the last 3, 4 years actually moving from just coaching the coach to actually coming in and coming alongside and coaching the leaders and the athletes within a team when I've worked in some elite high-performance teams. So you have all these conversations, you start to see common threads, right?
I'm a voracious note taker. And I have had an outline for a book based off my book, The Culture System. I was like, well, if I ever write a book for athletes, I'm always taking and dumping in what I'm learning, stories, ideas, concepts, tools that are absolutely critical for athletes to apply in their leadership.
When I went to start to think about writing this book, I actually was using a framework that was based on the Culture System framework, which is, you know, a leadership philosophy on the, at the core, and then establish support and enforce culture in relationships on the outside of that.
So that book was broken into 4 parts, but it didn't work. Like I was trying to, I was trying to take like the acronym thing. I'm trying to force all these tools into that. It was like, well, that doesn't work. So I just started looking back on it and what actually kind of came through is I started to realize that coaches often ask their athletes to lead the team.
They want players that will hold each other accountable. They're going to pull everybody together and give the speech, call 'em out like, this effort isn't good enough, right? Or they want them to call the team meeting to fix culture and Like they want that breakdown clicks great.
But there's stuff before that that comes. And what I've recognized in my own leadership as a coach is like, you actually like, okay, leading, you're building a great culture. Yeah. There's moments where you gotta, you gotta have that team meeting, you gotta have, you know, that workshop.
But like so much of like building cultures comes down to our conversations. It's the interpersonal relationships, it's leading individuals, it's leading others, right? Which is level 3 leadership. But I also know this in my own journey is that lead by example is absolutely vital.
And if I don't lead by example, then I will become a hypocrite. And so we oftentimes coaches are talking about, oh, I need players that lead by example and have that effort. So what I recognize is that those were like 3 things. Like you gotta lead by example before you can lead others.
And literally a lot of the work that everyone can do is to lead in others and lead individuals. And then at some point we have to lead the team as a coach. At some point our captains, People in the leadership group, they're going to do things to lead the team.
But the big thing that really predates all those 3 things that, and just time and time again, the best athletes, whether it's Michael Johnson, the Olympic gold medalist, to a Tom Brady, you know, a Mia Hamm, Abby Wambach, right? Simone Biles, like all these great athletes, they come through these moments where they realize more and they start to become better, know themselves, better understand their values, what's most important to them.
Simone Biles goes through this great career. Then she has this moment where she has to withdraw from the Olympics and she went away and she redefined success for her. Tom Brady wins 3 Super Bowls. He goes back and goes, God, I don't feel fulfilled.
He redefines success. He goes on and wins another 4 Super Bowls, right? Like there's so much evidence around athletes reaching the elite level or them falling short at elite level and what they have to, and they go through this period where they have to discover and know who they are, what's most important to them, whether it's a vision of values, Identity, right?
Passion, purpose. These are different elements of that, but it is doing that work now sets you up to be able to lead yourself, to lead others, and to lead the team.
You know, I love having conversations like this, especially when it's related to culture. But one thing that I've, you know, huge basketball junkie, watch a lot of basketball and, you know, when the playoffs come, I watch some postgame, especially from the players that I admire.
So I always find it, and I've always found it really interesting Players like LeBron James, when they speak in their postgame and how, like you said, they really know themselves. And so they don't get defensive when a question is asked. They can answer it truthfully to themselves.
And even I think in watching Victor Wembanyama being so young and seeing how he's flourished as a leader at this young stage of his career. And whenever he gets asked a question, he doesn't jump to answer. He'll think about it for a moment.
So it's just, You know, again, everyone's different, but I guess what I'm trying to say is like, you know, for Victor, he takes a moment to breathe, thinks about the question and answers it. So he just knows himself and that ability to, you know, know yourself and then you go and you're able to lead yourself and then you can do the other processes here, which is lead others and then lead the team.
And I think it's so evident. And like you said, the elite level athletes, when you listen to them speak, Right?
Yes. Yes. And you can tell, we all can tell when someone's trying to be somebody else and not truly the best self version of themselves. It's obvious to us as coaches when people are holding back their true self. Right. And so that's where getting people, like, like just going back to the most simple thing, like there's like an athlete that's like, oh, you know, all I care about is winning.
All I want to do is win. You know, like, and they're, it's very surface level. Right? And they're the athlete that is oftentimes not willing to get in there and be vulnerable, build relationships. It's like, I'm here to win. I'm here to, you know, push, push, push.
And they don't really understand actually what is most important to themselves. And so like, I love actually working in those spaces or with those athletes to go, to kind of pull and peel the onion back and go and go and decide, well, here, actually, this is what I really, really value.
Yeah.
To back to your question around values, like whether it's your coach values or an athlete finding their athlete values. I really don't like the activity of here's a list of 100 words, go pick a few that sound great, right? Like that's just shopping for values, right?
It's just what sounds good. What I like to do is through our coaching, my coaching conversations with coaches, you know, and is to really look within their experience and look at what's most important to me. What am I at my best? What words best describe me?
What am I at my worst? What words describe me, right? It's trying to get what other people see in me. It's actually more of an unearthing. So you have to look at the things that are important to you, the moments where you feel at peace, the moments where you feel fulfilled.
What are you doing? How are you operating? What words describe you? When do you feel out? Now you're starting to find out when you're out of your values, what does that look like? And so then you start to find words that resonate with that.
And I think that's really difficult work because you actually have to go and have experiences and reflect on those experiences. I work with a young Younger head coach, the Division II level in basketball the last few years. And that process, like he's constantly chopping and changing his values.
And somebody said, well, that's like, hurry up and make up your mind. But it's like, no, like, like you're going through this experience and you've got to figure out, well, do I really? Okay. I said I really value, you know, curiosity or joy, but is that really, really that important to me?
You know, like, and so sometimes through our experiences, those teach us a lot about what we value.
Yeah, that's a great point. I always say, and I might've even said it last time we spoke, it's like your values aren't what you say they are, it's what you allow. And it's exactly that. I think if you allow, maybe if we go onto this topic of leading others, and I have a question for you here, but if we go into this topic of leading others and you allow others to break maybe a value that you think you have, then maybe you really have to ask yourself, well, am I, is that really a value that's
important to me? And if it is, then why am I not standing up for it? And I think, you know, to move on to this in terms of mastering hard conversation, not necessarily even having it, but I, you know, what can you tell us, you know, and some maybe share some practical examples here at how players and coaches can master this art of having hard conversations?
What does that look like?
Yeah, I mean, I think you point to something there. When do we have a hard conversation or not? When do we challenge or not? Right? When something's going against our team values, our team standards, Right. And I think that's why it's really important to identify what you value as a coach at most core, because you then form your non-negotiables, which you then hold them accountable for.
Everything outside of that, okay, we can work on that. We can strive towards some of those standards, but we know like that doesn't necessarily require hard, challenging feedback every time. Otherwise, we'd just be spending all our days calling people out for things they're failing to do really, really well.
And none of us are perfect. There's 2 ways that I talk about practically within the book around accountability, hard conversations. And there's probably, I guess, a spectrum between these things. On one end is the most curious, and we call it a curious conversation, right?
It's a curious challenge. The curious challenge is very simple. There's some pretty cool stories about how like the South African cricket team used a very similar format to this, as well as, you know, when they were struggling with their cultural issues. But you share your intent.
Hey George, I wanna have a conversation with you, man, because, or, you know, you're, you mean so much to this team and, and you have such an impact as a leader on the program. So share your intent. The second thing is to share what you're observing, your observations, your assessment.
So 2 things in that. What is the facts today at practice? I saw you, or I heard you just kind of, you know, raising your voice and harshly criticizing some of the players. Then I'm going to share my assessment. So I shared the facts with my assessment.
My assessment is like, I think that that really brings some of the energy down in practice and really makes it harder for players to raise their energy and attitude. So then, so share your intent, share what you're observing, right? What you can separate facts from assessment in your language, and then ask the question, well, George, what do you think about that?
That's the curious challenge, right? I could be wrong, right? So I'm open to the fact, like, we recognize feedback as a conversation. So like, that's the first way is a curious challenge. The other way is just a direct challenge.
Yeah.
And that's like a very much more like, this isn't a conversation. It's just, you know, hey George, today in practice you were yelling, screaming, ripping players left and right. That's below our standard as a coaching group here. I know you're better than that.
I know when you bring your energy and positivity and you're really direct in your feedback, but you do it in a calm way. That players really respond well to that. And so we're going to need you to raise up your standard here the next few practices.
Now, there's not really a lot of curiosity in that. It's just like, we know what the standard is, but I'm also saying, hey, I know you're capable of more. I know you can do better. And when you do, this is the impact it has.
So there's kind of a range in those hard conversations, but those are the 2 big tools that we give athletes and coaches.
Yeah. And I guess, you know, from my personal experience, I remember years ago, Being in a new coaching environment. You know, I'm a young coach, I'd say, compared to my peers that I've worked with in the past. One of the challenges years ago was, you know, I don't know necessarily what my value is supposed to look like in real time, if that makes sense.
So let's say I want players to be respectful, but like, what's the line between being respectful and being really competitive at the same time? So it's like, It's all, I think for me anyways, it was a learning curve in terms of like, you know, where do I draw the line?
Should I let players express themselves? Because I think for me as a coach, I really want players to have ownership over what they do. And I want to empower them to, you know, express themselves and be in a safe space where they can make mistakes and then maybe I can call them out.
But I don't want to necessarily overstep the bounds and say, oh, you shouldn't be doing that. When in fact the intention was good. But perhaps maybe how they were expressing it could be better. You know, again, it goes back to, for me, it took me some time just living those experiences over and over again.
And then it's like, okay, this time I didn't like that. I'm going to speak to him about that. Okay. This I can let go. I think it was great for the team morale. Like he got everyone, you know, fired up because he was being honest with himself and with his teammates.
So I guess my question is, is there a way to kind of speed up that process for newer coaches that want to? Apply, you know, master these hard conversations, but knowing when to step in.
I had a conversation with a head coach just the other day, Division 1 coach, and many new transfers. And this coach was struggling with player communication, which I think is a lot of struggles. A lot of coaches out there, like, okay, how their responsiveness via text.
This coach was like, I don't know if it's reasonable or unreasonable for me to expect quicker Communication. It feels like it should be quicker. Like it feels like they should be able to get back to me quicker than that. But I don't really know what's going on with this athlete because I don't really know them that well.
So I said, that's a great thing to share. That's the curious challenge. I was like, you're in the perfect space for this. So that coach went off and had a conversation. She just said, hey, so-and-so, just want to have a conversation because I really value this relationship, right?
As your head coach, I noticed that the last few times I've communicated and texted there, that there hasn't been a response sometimes, or it comes days later. The story I'm telling myself is that, you know, you don't really care about this relationship and that, you know, you don't respect me as a coach, that you feel it's important to come back to me quickly.
But hey, I could be wrong. What's your perspective on it? Then they have this powerful conversation. The coach texts me later and it's like, oh, it went so well. And the player had their excuses, but they also realized that there was like, No, I do value that, this relationship.
And so if I value this relationship, I need to stop making excuses and I just need to respond quickly because I need to be— and like that, the athlete walked away going, I see that this coach is trying to invest in this relationship.
I have to do my part. Athletes didn't get defensive, right? In that situation, the coach was not attacking, right? They were just curious. Like, hey, I'm just letting you know that I see this. It makes me feel and think this, but I could be wrong.
What do you think? Like, no, no, no, I do value the relationship. I just got— I just get so crazy busy and this and this and this, I forget to respond. But that's not good enough. I actually— you're right, you're right, Coach. I need to make more of an effort.
I do value this relationship.
No, I love that. That's a great story. JP, I want to thank you for your time. Been a great conversation. I could honestly talk about this for another 30 minutes, but I'm going to be respectful of your time. And once again, thank you.
But before I let you go, I know, I know I asked you last time the transformative tip. I'm just wondering if you maybe have another transformative tip Or if it's changed from the last time.
Ooh.
Yeah.
One piece of advice that would instantly improve. One of the most powerful ways to develop your leaders when the standard is below the standard is to not go to the individual or go to the team, is to pull the person that you believe has the potential to be that level 4 leader in your group team and say, hey, I'm seeing this.
What are you seeing? Once there's agreement and there's awareness of the effort from that individual. So, hey, you know, this guy, you know, George aside, hey George, I see JP over there. Like, my observation is he is not working hard today. He's totally checked out.
So George, I need you to have a conversation with JP. Or it's pulling George aside and saying, hey, the team, our effort just is so below line right now. Like, what do you think? Yeah, it's not great. Okay. Well, I need you to go have that conversation.
I need you to step in. I need you to address that. When the standard isn't the standard, find the person with the greatest influence in your team. Have agreement, have awareness around where they're at, and challenge them to be the one that intervenes, not just for you to intervene all the time.
I love that. It's super practical as well. I'll be trying that over the summer camp now. So once again, JP, I really appreciate the time. Been great speaking to you.
I appreciate the opportunity, George.
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