Why Constraints Should be Different for Every Player with Drew Dunlop and Jake Grossmann

This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast, and I'm your host, Alex Sarama. This is the podcast where we help coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to create the ultimate resource to help make sense of how contemporary skill acquisition ideas can be applied within the basketball world.

Throughout the podcast, we'll unpack how an ecological dynamics framework alters our perspective If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, then this is the podcast for you. Welcome back to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. Today I'm joined by Drew Dunlop and Jake Grossman from The Pro Lane.

I'm a big fan of what these guys are doing within the basketball player development space, uh, fully committed to using an ecological approach, and just love all the Twitter videos that are emerging every week. So I had to get the guys on the show to talk about contemporary skill acquisition ideas and how it can be applied to basketball.

So Drew and Jay, thanks so much for coming on.

Appreciate it, Alex. Yeah, looking forward to it, man.

So my first question today, guys, is, you know, what made you as a company decide to go down this direction and, you know, really break away from the status quo and be brave going into the unknown and really going all in into using a constraint-led approach?

Yeah, I think, you know, for us, everything kind of started during COVID right? We, uh, schools shut down here. We are fortunate enough to find gym space pretty consistently. And so we had a decent amount of guys coming in 4 or 5 times a week.

And Jake and I, we found, uh, Rob Gray's book, How to Learn to Move. And oh man, from there, it just, you know, that was a spark, right? And you're going down that road and you're trying stuff and there's a lot of failures and But you're also finding a lot of stuff that's like, wow, this is, this is where it's at.

And then you start flashback. For me, I was a gym rat as a player. I could do every drill you could ever think of, but it just never connected to in-game. And to be able to then flash forward to finding Rob's book, to be playing around with ecodynamics and CLA within these sessions, and you're seeing these creative solutions emerge.

It's like, wow, this is, this is where it's at. And no looking back since then.

Love that. And Jake, we spoke about it a little bit offline just before we started, but what do you think are the biggest hurdles for coaches who are maybe using a traditional approach or maybe a games approach? What do you think to really move in this direction, use a CLA, like what do you think is the biggest hurdle to overcome?

Yeah, I mean, even in our own coaching journey, it was tough to kind of get used to seeing such a sloppy environment. But, you know, we come from a background where There's one way of doing something. It's got to look clean. It's got to look crisp.

And you're always being instructed on what to do. And getting away from that took a bit, right? There's kind of a learning experience on ourselves, but you got to look at it as, as coaches, we're asking these kids to explore and not minding making mistakes.

And I feel like as coaches, we also have to do that ourselves. So that was probably the biggest hurdle we overcome. You see other coaches trying to overcome.

Great stuff. You know, let's say picture the weeks after, you know, you're— we returned to court after COVID. You guys had read Rob's book, which is obviously excellent, How We Learn to Move. What would you guys say is the biggest difference kind of between where you're at now using the CLA a couple years later versus when you first started trying, you know, these ideas?

I think the toughest thing is when you're first in it, you have this picture of what the solution needs to be. And you almost look at it as like a failure if that doesn't come out in your drills and activities. And now, you know, now we're sitting there like we're running something, we set up an activity and we're just sitting back and observing like, oh, let's, let's tweak this.

Let's see what happens when we change this. And the players are really directing it for us because more often than not, these players are coming up with solutions that we would have never anticipated. And I love that. You know, I love sitting back and just kind of taking notes.

And, you know, our big thing is like we have whiteboards everywhere in the facility. We're always jotting down ideas and things that we see and we're like, okay, next time. We can kind of tweak this. And, you know, these guys, these type of players, like, they're finding that solution, but how do we switch it a little bit for them?

How do we, you know, set some new challenges? So that's the fun part. It's really a lot of fun.

Would you, on that note, I love that, Drew. Would you guys have any examples of maybe some constraint manipulations you've been using as of late or in a particular practice? Because I think what I'm trying to get at is how we're not doing this just randomly and turning up to practice and saying, let's play with these constraints.

You're doing it for a reason. So I don't know, maybe you could talk about that a little bit and the process behind, you know, maybe you're working with a player in a small group or an individual, you know, why are you manipulating constraints?

Yeah. You wanna take that, Jake?

Yeah. I mean, it's our belief that skill emerges. You know, I don't think a lot of people see how much work goes in behind the scenes. You know, we're studying trends, watching just numerous, numerous amounts of hours of film and breaking down some of the biggest trends and some of the biggest things you see happening within the game.

And to us, it's okay. How do we shape the environment to let some of these things emerge? It's kind of our playground as well. We're switching around constraints. We're constantly talking before sessions, in sessions, seeing what we can manipulate to get several solutions to emerge or push some of these guys towards solutions you'd like to see.

Great stuff. Drew, do you want to add anything to that? Yeah.

Yeah. I was, I'll say, you know, one of the things that Jake was talking about, like, where do we get these ideas from? We're just watching film, right? Lately it's been a ton of EuroLeague and EuroCup and You know, we got the FIBA World Cup going on and you're watching what's happening, right?

How are players getting to their spots? How are teams scoring efficiently? What are defenses doing to take away? Right. So we're taking those, those ideas and now we're trying to redesign kind of and recreate scenarios within our sessions. And one of the things that like we've really been focused on lately is we call them like the modern game truths.

All right. Rarely are players getting uncontested shots, uncontested finishes at the rim, right? Passes are either around a body, through traffic, tight windows. Right. Cutting, right? You understand how to balance the floor if your teammate drives, hits the paint.

Okay.

How are we reacting to that? Right. And some of that's related to principles of play within the team.

Yeah.

But we're also kind of looking at the overall, like, what are some universal solutions? Have you, right? So we're taking that and then we're thinking about, okay, how do we then take constraints to shape some of those? Right. So lately we've been playing around with a lot of shot clock, right?

Variable shot clocks on any possession. It might be anywhere You know, a late clock under 6, or you're looking at that 7 to 14 sweet spot. We might shape where, okay, there has to be a couple different actions before you can get into it, some kind of misdirection.

We've been playing around with scoring. So a big thing what we do is 3s are worth 3s, non-paint mid-ranges are worth 1, and anything where you get a foot in the paint is worth 2, right? So trying to teach these guys there's higher value areas on the floor.

Right. And you gotta find it player to player. It's a little bit different. The emphasized scoring thing where we're trying to play off of cuts, maybe we say, hey, anything off a cut generated is +3 or +4, right? So you're trying to allow these players to still be able to take a mid-range shot that's worth 1 because that's the best shot and the possession dictates that shot, but also incentivize like, hey, if I just take it one more step further, I get that extra point.

Yeah.

Right. Defensively, we've been playing around with, you know, different positioning, right? Having them start off a flyby closeout. Now they're in a scramble to get back, right? Most defenses practice in perfect setups, right? They're in their shell and everyone's in the right position and early talking.

But the reality of that is the game's not that, right? A lot of times it's scrambles, rotation, it's bailouts, it's late veer switches. So we're just trying to take all that chaos, shake it up in these sessions, sit back and let the players kind of figure it out.

Great point. I think the defensive benefit is something forgotten about a lot within the CLA. It's not, we're not just, you know, getting, uh, the offense and the offensive behaviors to become more skillful. But all the rep without rep we get on the defensive end is great too.

So you guys share a lot of really practical ideas for coaches, and I thought this would be a nice part of the podcast for us to just talk about some of these things, and then we can just see where the conversation takes us.

If you guys were to kind of have maybe 2 of your favorite activities each that you've maybe been using over the last week or last few weeks, What would they be, and would you guys be able to just describe them so then the coaches can immediately, listening to this, can try it maybe in their next practice?

It's a great question. You want to go first, Jake?

Yeah, I would say one thing we've been kind of honing in on in session is that connector piece, that connector role. You know, guys being able to make quick decisions off the catch, understanding when to shoot, or maybe if you got to close out, you're throwing that extra pass, making these decisions on a snap.

So that's something we've really taken from film. You know, I remember the other day I showed Drew a little video of a guy catching a hand, a pass corner with one hand and being able to snap a little touch pass. So now we've been kind of applying that to our guys, being able to throw a bad pass, catch a bad pass and move it.

Going from an isolated setting like that where it's kind of just one-on-air, 2-on-0, but you're making a bad pass, playing it into that next extra guy's taking a shot. Then you're building that out to, okay, now we're gonna make that guy throwing the bad pass have to close out.

Now you're mimicking, okay, is he closing out to me? Do I have space? Am I swinging it long or do I have space for shot? You know, trying to build out those kind of situations. So that connector role is one big thing we've really been teaching and prepping our guys with.

Nice. Thanks for that, Jake.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I would say on, on the connector role as well, we're also looking at a lot of finishing. Right. Finishing off cuts. 99% of finishing workouts, ball in hand, you make a move, you're creating a line, right? And we do, we do some of that, but also lately we've been really focused on how are guys getting layups and getting to paint solutions off of cuts, off of, maybe they don't get it early, they get it late.

Maybe it's a bad pass and now you're in a really bad position. Then we start to build out like pass out options along the court where they can now pass it. Oh, now we're respaced. Now we're playing off a closeout.

Yeah.

Like that multiple actions mentality, right? And I know we had talked, Alex, a little bit about like the give it up, give it back type stuff, right? The Steph Curry pass it, stop, starts, pace into it. So that's what we've been focused on a lot of is like, once you give the ball up, what's the next play?

Because everyone talks about the next play mentality, but rarely do you ever see players getting opportunities to make mistakes with that, get feedback on it.

Yeah.

You know, how does my action or my inaction directly impact the other players on the court. So we're just trying to figure out different ways to build that out and let these guys play around with it a little bit.

Absolutely. And just on that cut one, I love what you shared on Twitter the other day. Maybe it was, yes, if memory serves me correctly, you had, there was 2 players on the wings and then you had a passer at the half line.

So it was a 1-on-1 plus 1. And then as soon as the pass kind of, as soon as the cuts had started going, it was live pass. I had a functional solution to get them the ball and then it was just 1-on-1 off the cut.

So I think stuff like that's great in finishing because, like you said, so much of the time in player development, we think that finishing is just coming off a dribble, going in a straight line from the elbow, doing some type of move. But we're not looking at all the scenarios that players are actually finishing in the game.

And I think that goes back to what you said, Jake, about the importance of film and actually seeing how are players finishing, and then let's recreate those environments.

Yeah.

And another thing it touches on too is the whole concept of nested affordances, right? player having to catch a ball in space, but then also be able to perceive where a defender's coming at. You have to catch it, then you have to make a decision.

And are you scoring? Are you passing it out? Right? So now you're really challenging and overloading these guys. And, and it's fun because rarely do they get opportunities at that.

Absolutely. It'd be really interesting just to hear about your perspective on shooting guides, because I think this is one a lot of player development/skill trainers struggle with in terms of how can we apply CLA to shooting? As opposed to just having, you know, to do these block spot reps, you know, any practical ideas for how you guys are doing this in the shooting space?

Yeah, we do a lot of what we call like adaptive shooting, you know, shooting with decisions and shooting pressure as often as possible. A lot of the times we work in what we call rhythm breakers. So you're getting multiple shots, but it's multiple different sets of footworks or multiple sets of decisions into the shot.

So that each shot is variable, right? Maybe you have space, maybe you don't have space. Maybe it's a bad pass. You got to go find it with your feet, right? So those trivial details make players adjust and adapt shooting-wise as well. And you're getting away from that block, rote repetition scheme.

And Jake, on that, have you ever had players kind of that you've had to explain, you know, why you're working this way? Because obviously you guys have pros too, or You know, is it a case of they try it and they just see the value to it immediately?

Yeah, I mean, sometimes you get a little bit of pushback, but in reality, we have a great, great group of clientele. You know, like I said, we always talk about it's our relationship with them that builds the trust, you know, and they're willing to try and explore and even fail in some of these situations.

You know, that bond kind of allows us to create an environment where they feel safe and willing to try. But most guys eat it up. They love it.

That's definitely been my experience too. Like, I've never had a player say, I don't want to do this, even, you know, at high levels. It's, I think they see the value to it immediately and, and they feel like getting better because it's more representative.

It's a no-brainer.

Yeah.

Drew, on the, we, we had an interesting text exchange a couple of weeks ago and we were just talking about rate limiters. And I think that's a really kind of key concept for coaches to understand. How is that, you know, how are you guys thinking about this and trying to incorporate, you know, activities where you're really targeting each player's rate limiter?

You know, but it's not easy, right? Because sometimes you have a small group practice, you've got 4 players and they've all got unique needs. So has that changed anything for you, just thinking about, all right, how can we really target this within this particular activity?

Yeah, I think, you know, we're very mindful of trying to hand out more individual constraints to guys. You know, just yesterday we had a group and it was a pretty competitive group, but we had one player that was really kind of shining and I pulled him off to the side and he's like, you know, I really don't know what to do because I can get, I can get to the basket every time.

I said, okay, well now you got to go off your left foot and you got to finish with your left hand. You know, he's typically a 2-foot jumper, right? Trying to be powerful. So just even doing that, and that completely changed his solutions the next 4 or 5 minutes after that segment.

So I think it's, it's trying to find that optimal challenge point within the group, but also understanding there's guys with ranges of skill sets and certain activities benefit them more. And, you know, they have a little bit more of an embodied perception within that.

And so it's our job to sit around and say, okay, this guy's most likely going to struggle, probably need to make it a little bit easier for him. These guys are going to excel. So let's think about ways that—

Yeah.

You know, we can constrain them a little bit more and they're now, they're meeting them where they're at.

With that player, like if a player's doing really well, would it just be something about maybe limiting their space or maybe adding an extra, throwing an extra defender in, less dribbles?

Yeah, you can constrain them in terms of dribble counts or some of the things too is played around a little bit with telling guys that, hey, you can't, you can't shoot on your first 2 touches, right? You gotta figure out how to create.

Something I heard a while back was, I can't remember who it was, but there's like a game where whoever gets the ball first is not allowed to shoot. So whoever gets it has to think, okay, how do I create an advantage? Yeah, I think defense was at neutral, so it was really on them.

The ownership was on them to create something and then distribute and then space and just be available. So there's no limit to it. It's just really about your creativity and understanding your players, your skill sets, and then You know, do you have buy-in, right?

Like, think about what you had with your college prep. I mean, that the environment shaped that, right? That was the culture. Unfortunately, some of these guys that we have, we don't have a team, so it's a bunch of individuals. And when they're with us, it's like that, but then they go to their teams and it's a little bit more traditional.

And so it's trying to balance all that.

Yeah, absolutely. I can imagine. And you mentioned principles of play too, Drew, and I think that's such an important part of player development because it's so much of a time we see player development in this silo where it's just moves, moves, moves, and guys are doing things completely different to how they play.

So, and that must be a challenge because if you've got all these guys playing in different teams, I guess it's like trying to actually make things a bit more integrated where they're learning some universal principles which they're probably not doing in their teams, like spacing, dominoes, right?

And I see you guys do a lot of that stuff within your sessions.

Yeah, yeah, we try to, we really try to emphasize that because they're not getting it anywhere else. You know, like we have a shot clock in our facility. Most high schools, actually all high schools in our area do not have that. So this is a lot of times the first experience they have with that and hearing the buzzer go off and everyone in the crowd, you know, everyone in the gym, there might be guys lifting and all that.

And then the minute a shot clock violation happens, everyone starts clapping. Like it's a, it's an atmosphere thing. It's awesome. So the more we can get players in those positions, the better off. And now they have at least some experience with it, right?

Failures, successes, they get feedback.

Yeah.

And it's going to make him a better player for sure.

Definitely. Just, and principles of play-wise, I guess it's, that's the thing, because skills always emerge within the context of those. And it's, I shared a tweet, I shared quite a few tweets about it, and it's like, even, you know, when we see these advanced moves emerge, typically it's coming off something like a pick and roll, maybe some type of up or screen, or it was a domino situation.

And it's the, you know, the reductionist approach to player development, I think, really kind of Lost track of what is actually happening within the games.

So yeah, context is everything.

It really is. It really is. So if you guys were to imagine, you know, you were starting off from where you were a few years ago, and same as me when I first discovered the CLA, what advice would you maybe give yourself in hindsight if you were, you know, to start again from scratch?

to maybe better understand an ecological approach and be able to deliver it? So, because I'll say my one after when you guys go, because this is something I'm thinking about a lot, just, you know, when I'm trying to get a new coach on board, what's the easiest way I could maybe get them going and using the CLA if they've never been exposed to it, but also overcome some of the hurdles that the 3 of us would have encountered inevitably when we all started?

Great question. It's kind of interesting because we have had some, some of our college guys come in and help with some sessions, you know, and it was interesting to see them kind of progress through our model of training, getting away from what a lot of the guys are still doing now, maybe when they're at school, and being able to progress from blocked, non-variable repetitions and build it out to creating the environment and allowing the environment To let these skills emerge.

So I would say, I mean, it happens in tiers. Start slow, be patient. It was tough. You know, you get people watching, you have athletes kind of questioning, you have parents questioning, but, you know, just sticking to the process and believing what you believe in, you know, has led us to where we are now.

Love that, Jake.

Yeah, I would say for me, I mean, Jake hit it right on the head there. The other thing you could add in too is that one player finds as a solution is not For everybody, right? And it's okay. It's okay. You don't have to— like, you get in this mindset, I have to teach this move to everybody.

Like, this is an attacking move, right? It's different. So every player kind of brings their own skill sets and, and what they're good at, their strengths or weaknesses, all that to the table. And it's just your job to allow them to explore stuff.

And it's okay to fail. Like Jake was saying, you got people watching, right? You might be a private trainer like we are. That's your business. That's how you make a living. People see a lot of mistakes and frustrations as a parent. They're like, these guys don't know what they're doing.

They're barely even talking, right? They're sitting there writing on a whiteboard. I'm not paying them for that. But in reality, it's okay. So I would say the younger me flashback, it's okay. Not everyone has to do the same thing.

Love that. I was actually going to say something so similar to that, Drew, about overcoming these mental models as to what I thought skills should look like. Especially shooting was the biggest one for me. I still find— found it so difficult to move away from that.

And then the moment I did, it's just everything changed. Yeah. I'd love to, like, as we wrap this up, guys, what's next for the Pro Lane? Like, are you guys working on any big things? Or over the next year, is there, you know, a key part of maybe the CLA that you really want to dive even deeper into?

Or just anything in general that is coming up for you guys personally or with the company?

Yeah, I think big push forward now is like we want to take it global and consult with programs, individual players, individual coaches, and just help share the mistakes we made, you know, what we've learned. Obviously you can expect a ton more content to continue to emerge on Twitter and we're just having fun with it.

We're going to keep exploring and making mistakes.

Fantastic. Well guys, I want to say a big thanks for jumping on. As we wrap up, where would be the best place for coaches to follow you, maybe ask you some questions after today's episode?

Definitely Twitter.

Yeah, Twitter. Yeah.

Yeah.

We've been very active on there and we encourage discussion. We love having these discussions. Drew, you want to hit them with the Twitter handle? Yeah.

So the Pro Lane, or actually, what is it? Is it Pro Lane Milwaukee? I think it's the Pro Lane. Yeah. The Pro Lane, just like the sweatshirt right here. And then my personal one is Coach Drew D and then Pro Lane Jake.

Great stuff. Well, guys, thanks so much for jumping on the podcast today. Much appreciated, and obviously looking forward to being in touch. So thanks again.

Appreciate it, Alex. A lot of fun, man.

Appreciate it. Awesome.

Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Transforming Basketball Podcast. If you would like to learn more about the work we do, head to www.transformingbball.com to access our free resources And help spread these ideas throughout the basketball world. If you enjoyed this episode, then please subscribe and leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform.

We will gladly answer any questions from today's episode via our social media platforms. See you next time on the Transforming Basketball Podcast.