Why Coaches Shouldn't be the Focus of a Team with Simon Turner

This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast, and I'm your host, Alex Sarama. This is the podcast where we help coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to create the ultimate resource to help make sense of how contemporary skill acquisition ideas can be applied within the basketball world.

Throughout the podcast, we'll unpack how an ecological dynamics framework alters our perspective If you're ready to join us in our quest to transform the basketball world, then this is the podcast for you.

Welcome back to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. Really pleased to have Simon Turner with us today of Movement Sports, and I think this is really going to be a great discussion because so much of the time within the basketball world we get so caught up on set plays, drills, how to coach, what to coach.

But I think there's a lot of things that we miss. And some of the work that Simon does with Movement Sports, with that working with Alan Keane, who also is coming onto the podcast, I just think it's so important that coaches are aware of some of the work that Simon and Alan are up to.

So on that note, Simon, thanks so much for joining the podcast.

Well, thanks for having me, Alex. Looking forward to it.

Absolutely. So we had the chance to both speak at the same clinic in Ireland back in the summer, organized by Nabil Mourad, Renn Sports. It was a really good clinic. And I just thought, you know, so many of the things that you guys are doing, it aligns perfectly with the message I'm trying to get across at Transforming related to, you know, contemporary skill acquisition, use of the constraints-led approach, transformational coaching.

So a lot of messages. And where I wanted to start with today is I mean, the website of Movement Sports, I think, is really good, and I'm going to include it in the show notes so coaches can check it out. But could you just talk a bit, Simon, about your mission statement as a company and what you guys stand for?

Yeah, well, first of all, I think it's important for all of us in sport to acknowledge that sport doesn't always do good, that sport does do harm, and that's no different to any other sector in our society.

But we do need to acknowledge that there are people in basketball taking part who are having negative experiences and that a lot of those negative experiences are connected to the behaviors of the coach. First of all, we just need to get that out there and just make sure that, you know, we're all understanding, we're all honest with each other that sometimes we, our coaching has a negative impact on players.

And often that's unintentional, but, you know, sometimes it's perhaps done with some awareness.

It's also inevitable. You can't coach for many decades and not have some sort of negative impact, sometimes even unknowingly, on players. But sport does do harm. It does perpetuate some of the inequalities in our societies as well. And as coaches, we're a part of that.

And so, movement really sprung out of changes that we're seeing in society.

We're seeing the MeToo movement, we're seeing Black Lives Matter, we're seeing a mental health and wellbeing crisis across many different countries.

We're coming out of COVID which just sped all that up.

And so coaches who have a social conscience or who just want to help the people they're coaching, what do you do? Like, deep breath, you know, because the days of just being able to ignore the needs of the people you coach and just focus on teaching them how to run a 2-2-1 zone, those days are over.

I mean, they are just gone. You cannot be a modern coach coaching a modern athlete, especially a young person who's been through COVID lockdowns, and expect to be able to just ignore the human needs of other people you coach.

But that said, it's hard. We've got so many different things we have to do as coaches.

So a big part of our ethos at Movement is to acknowledge that sport can do harm, but then also recognize that if we're intentional about using sport as a movement for good, we can have a real impact on the people we coach.

Fantastic stuff. So, I mean, everything you guys are doing too, it's evidence-based ideas. So, I mean, Where do you think, Simon, it starts with coaches looking more at this humanistic element of coaching? Do you think it would be something like transformational leadership, which I know you guys speak about a lot, or would it be maybe looking at something like self-determination theory, or would it be something else?

Yeah, great question. It starts with the psychology of the coach. So it's definitely a personal psychology approach to begin with.

It quickly becomes a sociological approach. It quickly becomes about groups and teams, but I think the starting point is with the individual coach. And the starting point for the individual coach is self-awareness. That's the beginning. At the very least, if we increase our understanding, our awareness of how we impact others, I think you can't help but change and grow.

Once you shine a light on that and then strengthen that light, you can't help But improve as a coach in terms of the impact you have on others? Most coaches don't knowingly have a detrimental impact on individuals. Most of us wouldn't knowingly do that.

So if you flip that around and say, well, if we do know it, if we do become more aware of the impact we have on others and we become much more aware of the interference that we are running for ourselves, then you're probably just gonna improve as a coach just simply by shining a light on that.

Love that. So just something I know that you guys talk about is being a difference maker. And I think, you know, maybe a coach listening to this for the first time is just really reflecting on their practices and the importance of being more of a transformational coach.

But it's not easy, right? Especially when as coaches we've grown up in very traditional environments. And like, for instance, for me, Sama, I remember I started coaching because of the negative experiences I encountered as a player, and I wanted to undo that and offer something different.

But—

That's common.

It's common, but what— it's difficult because we have all these biases from what we've experienced in the past. So would you have any advice for a coach who's trying to become more transformational in their perspective and how they operate?

Yeah, start with 2 really basic questions, who and why.

So who are you trying to be transformational for?

And if you say my team, then okay, yep, that's a good start.

But who within the team?

What are their needs?

Give me a breakdown of all 12 or 15 members of your team or your 18-player squad. Give me a breakdown of all of their human needs.

So who are you being transformational for? Because that type of approach has a lot of power in it.

But if we're selective in how we apply it, then I think we're doing a disservice to the people that we coach.

So are you being transformational for the worst player in your squad? If you're coaching kids, how much is the worst player in your squad improving?

I think that's as good or even better a metric for who we are as coaches than how many of your best players have gone on to the next level.

So if you're gonna be transformational for your 3 best players, okay, good place to start. But how about you also be transformational, or even more so, for the 3 worst players in your squad?

I love that. That's such a nice way of phrasing it. What would you say then, Simon, are like some characteristics or behaviors of a transformationally orientated coach?

Yeah, great question.

So, um, the research from Dr.

Cronin Collum at Liverpool John Moores University springs to mind. So what, what is care in coaching? That's the essential question that Collum's asking.

Uh, and there's some really interesting work that he's done.

Great book, by the way, should we perhaps put in the, in the show notes. And where it starts with is engrossment. So that means I'm diving into the needs of the people I've coached.

I'm particularly— the skill there is observation. I think as coaches, our skills in observation, it could be better from my observation of coaches observing other people. Sometimes coaches go into it because they love the sport, they've got a lot to share, so they naturally perhaps talk a lot.

You know, they're in the middle of conversations because they love it. They absolutely love it. And that's just a human response.

But how good are you at observing?

How often do you really step back?

Are you observing the players off the court? What are you seeing? Yeah.

And how much interference are you bringing to that observation? How much are you filtering what you see? So getting really good at observing the people you coach is a really important starting point.

Another principle to move on to then is placing the needs of your players above your own needs.

And that is like easier said than done. I'm not going to stand here and tell people that, that, oh, just click your fingers and do that. Because like, you know, we all like to think that we do that. But when I look back at a lot of my coaching, how often did my own needs impact on the way I coached other people?

And that's just basic human psychology. We're all, nobody's immune to that at all. So being able to really step aside and recognize when there's a conflict between your needs and the needs of the players is important. I think it's important to make a distinction between the needs of your players and the wants of your players.

So being a transformational coach and really showing care to your players doesn't involve giving them what they want. It does involve giving them what they need, which is often slightly two different things.

Yeah. And then, you know, that's where you have to do your work and your research to try to understand the difference there. And then the third element I'd look at is, is it reciprocal?

So have you got a caring environment? So it's not just about the individual relationship between me, the coach, and that individual athlete.

What are the relationships like between athletes? Because although I can't control that, I can influence it for sure.

And they're in my environment. And then are athletes showing care for other people? Is there care going the other way from players to coaches? Because that's how you know, that's how you really know you're creating a care environment. If those players actually turn around and show care back towards coaches, the equipment manager, are they looking after that person in a genuine way?

Are they actually showing care back to the head coach?

Now that can be hard for a player, especially a young player, but maybe you could measure that by, you know, 3 years later, how many of those people are still in your life and coming back to the program.

So are the players then reciprocating that care in the other direction?

That's great stuff. I'm just reflecting on my kind of journey too, as the more I'm listening to Simon, it's like, I'd say it's really the last 2 years only that I can say I've fully intended to be a transformational coach. And even then, you know, there are days where I don't— I could do something, I could slip up in a practice and say one thing and I regret it after.

And it's just an awareness of it. And it's— but before that, it's like I got so caught up in— like, it's only these last 2 years that I've realized it's the most important thing. Because before that, I was so focused on X's and O's, maybe even learning about skill acquisition, even though now I see how The stuff I'm doing in the SkillAct space, it's so complementary with this approach, right?

But it's tough for coaches, right? Because we get distracted with the gruel of a season and all these tasks that come up. And then 2, it's like you look at the most traditional kind of programs in basketball, the most successful programs, and it's probably the— in a lot of instances, I would say it's maybe the opposite to a transformational environment in terms of this culture based on toughness.

the coach being like a very superior figure. And it's not easy, right? So it's kind of very difficult to impact this landscape that we have and be able to get this message across like you're talking about today in terms of there's a whole different way we can approach basketball, sport, and life.

Yeah, I hear you for sure, Alex.

I think if you really want to be a truly transformational coach, I would start, or at least at some point in your journey, be really intentional about choosing to put yourself in transformational environments. Because if you're trying to behave in a way that is in conflict with the broader environment, you're going to lose that battle.

I'm afraid it doesn't matter who you are, you're going to lose that. Now you could try to rise up within that organization and, and have more power and more control as time goes on and therefore have a bigger impact on the environment.

That's fair. You could do that.

But trying to be transformational inside a transactional culture is, you're just going to lose that.

Yeah.

You're going to lose that battle. I'm afraid that's just reality.

So one of the tips there, you know, at some point in your career, you've actually got to start taking just, you know, every job offer you get and start being really intentional about, oh, there's an environment over there with that organization.

You know, I could be transformational inside that environment and then putting a plan in place to get into that environment. It might take you a while depending on how competitive it is in that space. Yeah. It's also, you're in some regards, you're just fighting against human nature, the need to look after yourself.

And if you're in an environment where your status is questioned, you are not being supported, it's really hard to support others. That doesn't mean you shouldn't take a transformational approach in those contexts. It just means, I think, be aware of the context that you're operating in and the impact it's having on you.

Reflect on the impact.

Yeah.

That the culture and environment is having on your behaviors. Like journal that, like write that down. Find a partner you can buddy with who you can share this kind of insight with confidentially. They might do the same for you in return so that you can at least shine a light on some of your behaviors and vocalize those to another person.

And in doing so, your brain will start to process those and then you can do the same for your buddy.

It's not for the faint-hearted, Alex.

Like, it's easier to switch off your emotions, switch off your care for people, and just coach the X's and O's, tell them exactly what to do. Like, that is emotionally easier than the kind of approach that you're advocating.

So true. Just reflecting, Simon, on the work you and Alan do at Movement Sports, I think for me, it's all about helping coaches be more effective and doing that, you know, through a transformational lens. You know, something else that I'm a big fan of, and I've started really thinking about deeply, is your plan-do-review process.

And I think especially like for the coaches who are using a CLA, I think it's incredibly valuable, especially early on, because when a CLA is used, it's unpredictable and you don't always know what's gonna happen when you manipulate a constraint. So I think by really thinking deeply about possible things that might emerge when something is done.

And then, you know, being able to review that for next time is huge. So could you actually just outline, Sarama, the plan-do-review process? And this could be a whole podcast, I know, but I think this could be like maybe the second half of where we take our discussion today.

Yeah.

So let's talk about the opposite of a plan-do-review approach, and that's a do-do-do approach. And that's the straight line that so many of us are in all the time, because we're coaching so much, particularly if it's a second job, you're teaching at the school and then you're coaching basketball every night after school.

You've got a day job and then you're coaching in a club afterwards. Or even if you're a full-time pro, you're still dealing with all sorts of things that you, you know, don't really want to be dealing with. You still got to answer an email or whatever it is.

You've got stakeholders. It's so easy just to fall into that trap of just do, do, do, do. If you fall into that trap, essentially what happens is you slow your learning down because plan, do, review is a learning cycle, right? So it's basically on Kolb's learning cycle, right?

So it's not brain surgery. We certainly didn't invent it. But it's instead of a straight line of do, do, do, it's a cycle or a circle, plan, do, review. So you plan, then you go do, and then you reflect and review on how you executed your plan.

So that therefore your next plan is informed by your previous review. So by definition, you are essentially getting better every single time you complete that cycle. Whereas if you're just going in a straight line and you don't complete the cycle, you're just not getting better.

And if your review consists of thinking about it in the car on the way home from practice, or moaning to your fellow coach about how the players Couldn't do what you wanted them to do. That's not a review. That's a moan.

Hey, it's a start.

So coming up with your own plan-do-review cycle that fits you as a coach could be really simple, will speed up your learning.

That's great stuff, Simon. So just to kind of give an outline. So what I did last year was I had your books, you know, the Movement Sports Notebook. So what we did is we had like practice planning process. And reflecting on it now, I would have liked to have involved the other coaches more because it was a little bit linear with me planning it, sending it out like on the morning of the afternoon practice, and then they could get back with feedback and we might change it.

But maybe I think now if I could do that again, it would be more collaborative. Then we had the do, right? And that was delivering the practice, and we'd go off script and really, you know, using the CLA best as we knew how.

And then the review, and I think this is the one which— would you agree it's the review is probably the one which is the least done in terms of coaches spend a lot of time doing, like you said, maybe they might plan, but then very rarely would they then actually talk about it intentionally, maybe with their staff, about what just went on.

And even if it's 10 minutes of talking about it and what you could do better next time, that's something, right?

Yeah.

Oh, 100%. And also, a lot of coaches' plans are basically just a list of drills that they're going to do in practice. I have to— I hate to break it to coaches, but That's not really a plan.

Even professional teams, it's very much that, Simon, like a list.

Yeah, exactly. And that speaks to just that tic-tac only approach. And like I said at the beginning of the conversation, I'm afraid that approach doesn't work in any context anymore, even in a pro environment where you're getting imports coming through for only one year.

You still want to get the best out of those players. You've still got a chance to build relationships.

Those players are going to talk to other players next year, even if they're only a year with you.

So your relationship is with them is going to translate into your reputation. But you're right, the review is perceived to be the hardest point of the process, but it doesn't have to be.

So do you want me to give you like a really quick review framework?

Fantastic. Yeah, let's do it.

So this review framework has got 3 steps. It's really easy.

It's been developed for nurses in a hospital, right? So nurses are going from one patient to the next, Nurses are do, do, do, right? So how does a nurse improve?

How do they share information with other healthcare professionals in that context? And how do they make sure they don't repeat mistakes?

So they need a super fast review framework that they can do literally standing up in a hallway, either in their own head or quickly with a colleague.

So it's got 3 steps.

It's called what, so what, now what. Number one, what just happened? So let's get a shared understanding of what just happened in that practice or in that game. And that's where assistant coaches, fellow coaches can really help because you can have, let's have a 5-minute conversation.

What's, what's the highlights?

So if you and I were coaching together, Alex, okay, right.

What's the 3 things that stood out to you at what just happened at that practice? And you might go, oh, our, our decision-making on the pick and roll really improved from the beginning to the end. I noticed those 2 players, they weren't communicating very well.

I think there's something going on there, right? And then you might say, I really think that our pick and roll coverages need some work. And I wonder if our decision-making on offense of the pick and roll improved in the session in part because our pick and roll defense was so bad, right?

So you're telling me 3 things that just happened. I could tell you 3 different things, right? And that all 6 things could have happened, but we can at least develop a shared understanding.

You might have seen something I didn't.

Even on your own, what just happened? What's the 3 most important things that just happened? Stage 2, so what?

So what are the implications of what just happened? Okay, implication is we have not spent enough time on pick-and-roll defense, or our implication is we've got some conflict issues and communication issues between a couple of players.

Right.

Okay, step 3, now what? So what are we going to do at the next practice or the next game based on the implications?

Okay, so next practice, we need to tidy up our coverages.

We need to be simpler on what our coverages are, and we need to teach those better in the next practice. And we need to, if we're using a CLA approach, when we're playing next practice, let's put them in pick and roll situations rather than post situations or drive and kick situations.

Let's just spend more time on drive and kick situations in our CLA work at the next practice. Let's have a one-to-one. Hey, Alex, you speak to player X, I'll speak to player Y in the next 24 hours. Just subtly, just, you know, try to have a one-to-one, try to get to the bottom, and then let's put our heads back together tomorrow, compare notes, and then see what we need to do to repair that relationship between those players.

What happened?

So what?

Now what?

So good. And I remember even, so this was 2 seasons ago when I first started doing it, when you guys had released this and I was coaching by myself in the second half of my season because my assistant coaches, they didn't get visas to stay in Italy.

So they went back home to Canada and the UK. I was left by myself with the team and I was texting Alan. I was like, you know, we're talking about the plan-do-reviews. And I was like, oh, I'm just, I'm finding it harder now and by myself to be disciplined to do it.

And then that was just a cop-out. And he was like, even just going through the process for coaches that If they have a staff, great. But even if you're by yourself, just spending 10 minutes reflecting on it. And then when I started doing it again by myself and just being more disciplined, I noticed that my best ideas, AKA like new small-sided games or new ways to maybe, like you said, there was a conflict in a practice and a way to kind of try and remedy that.

My best ideas came because of that intentional time I focused reflecting on the practice. And I think When you don't do that, I just think, like you said, it's, it's so difficult to keep innovating and keep applying evidence-based ideas in the program if you're not allocating that time to this process.

Yeah. And it fits perfectly with CLA, right? Because there's a misconception that constraints-led approach doesn't involve any planning.

Exactly.

You're not planning in there.

Hold on.

You just spent half an hour playing 3-on-3.

Well, there's no planning in that. We're like, dude, there's so much planning goes into making it look like you haven't planned.

That's so well put, Simon. That's exactly it. And it's like, you, and you've got to have things in your back pocket because maybe something, maybe you're trying to amplify a situation and the constraint you're using just isn't working. What are you going to go to next?

And if you haven't gone through it, then it is going to look really bad and generic, which is the opposite to what I think a CLA done well is.

Yeah. That's why it takes courage to coach in that way. And that's partly why I think there are some pockets of resistance to innovations in coaching practice.

It's because it's psychologically safer to do things the way they've always been done and/or the way that other coaches do them because you're keeping your head down. And if you're in an unsafe environment, is it any wonder that coaches are resistant to innovations like CLA approach?

Because if you get that wrong, it's obvious. Whereas if you do the status quo and you get it wrong, it's not obvious at all.

Exactly.

It takes courage, you know, to change your approach and it takes courage to do that. And that comes back to a question earlier on about like, what's the foundation of being a transformational coach?

And for me, I think it is that self-awareness because that's going to lead you to the courage that you need to be innovative because becoming aware of the reasons why I'm following the status quo, and I don't mean like the surface reasons, like you're Tic-tac reasons.

I mean, like your personal, emotional, social reasons why you're following the status quo, becoming aware of that as a foundation to then having the courage to change.

Oh, that's so good. And I was just thinking too, like with the plan-do-reviews, the potential to apply that in an organization, for me, it's not just coaching. I'm just thinking about it now. I'm looking at how you can apply evidence-based ideas throughout a whole organization, front office, analytics, biomechanics.

Every role you could apply this. For instance, maybe you're running a video session with the players, or maybe you've just had a staff meeting and you didn't think it was as smooth, you know, as you wanted. It's just, it's unlimited, the potential.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I'm looking at my whiteboard over my shoulder here because I'm currently planning out a system for how do you link plan-do-review processes from a microcycle for practices and games into your mesocycle, your phase plan, the preseason or the playoffs, and then into your season plan.

So how do you put plan-do-review cycle inside another cycle, inside another cycle? And how does the insights and data and information flow between those cycles?

That's amazing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's a lot of power. If you could get full alignment between your planning and reviewing processes for today, inside this month or phase, inside this season, if you get full alignment, imagine how much time you would stop wasting. We've all been down that rabbit hole where we spent 3 weeks putting in a new offense or something, and then we're like, oh man, that didn't work.

And you know, that's down the drain.

And so if we can get better alignment, then we can save a lot of time and resources and be much, much more effective. So that planning system, that's a tough nut to crack. So that's what I'm working on at the moment.

Oh, great stuff. I think I'd like to finish our discussion today, Simon, with the importance of coach wellbeing because it's, I think, just look, you know, the ideas that we both believe in so much. I think if you are in a traditional environment where you are really burnt out, you got a really demanding schedule and you just don't have time to reflect and invest in you.

And it's kind of the opposite to being able to apply new ideas and everything we discussed today. So Why is coach wellbeing just so important in the basketball world? And a 2-part question, Simon. What are, what are some things either individuals or organizations could do proactively to try and tackle this topic?

Yeah, this might be a bit controversial or a bit simplistic, Alex, but I'm just, I'm going to blurt it out. On an individual level, to improve your wellbeing, what a lot of coaches I see need to do, and we support coaches all over the world.

I was on a call this morning to colleague in New Zealand, and we've got members all over Europe, Canada, the US, different levels.

And you know what? You know what you got to do to improve your wellbeing?

Quit your job and go work in a better environment.

And I know that's easier said than done.

100% know that's easier said than done, but that is a big part of it because no amount of meditating and cold showers and like, you know, walking at 6:00 AM and getting sunlight, no amount of meditating is going to Outweigh being in a toxic environment.

So if you're in a toxic environment, make a plan for getting out of it. And I know that's easier said than done, and it might take you a year, but just start making a plan now to get out. Identify an environment you want to be in, in your city, in your region, whatever, and make a plan to get into that space.

That alone will make a big difference. On the assumption that you're in a reasonably positive and healthy environment, then from there, your wellbeing is— there's, you know, personal tactics, like I mentioned earlier, but I find those to be a little bit overblown.

And that's, you know, they're about habits as if you can sort of, you know, like I said, meditate your way to happiness.

Well, practice like that has an effect on you, but it's the self-awareness that comes from something like meditating or long walks or hard exercise that then leads to the kind of wellbeing challenges.

You know, finding out what wellbeing is, I think, is a help. Like we've got the 5 Ways to Wellbeing here in the UK that's become quite prevalent. So just doing a bit of research. In the basics, what is wellbeing?

Wellbeing is having the resources available to me to meet the challenges I'm facing. So it's basically balancing act between I've got the resources I need to meet the challenges I face.

Hmm.

And by resources, we mean internally, I've got the capabilities. So in order to change your wellbeing, you can change one of two things. You can increase your internal resources or you can decrease your external challenges, right? Because it's a seesaw, right? It's that balancing act.

So you've got to look at both those things. That's why I suggest a lot of coaches need to get out of the environment that they're in. But on the assumption you're in a decent environment, then it becomes about increasing your own.

Yeah. Internal resources and saying things like exercise more often.

I mean, every coach listening to this knows that.

So that, you know, that's, that's, that's too easy. So again, I would come back to self-awareness and just recognizing, so what are your triggers to stress? You know, what specifically, like what stresses you when you've been at your worst in the last 3 months, when you've been at your worst, you're most annoyed, you're most pissed off, you've behaved in a way that you regret towards your players.

What was the trigger for that?

Yeah.

So what is triggering in your environment causing you stress? And then I would put those inside the circle of control, influence, and concern. So the smallest circle is our circle of control. What's inside our circle of control that we can change? Well, maybe exercise, for example.

Yeah. Then what factors that are stressing you out are in your circle of influence?

That might be the behavior of somebody around you.

It might be to some extent the the context you're in, maybe you're an athletic director, you're a performance director at your club, that's your circle of influence.

And then outside that is your circle of concern, which you have no control over and no influence. And if you are focusing on things that are in your circle of concern, you're creating unnecessary stress for yourself because you've got no influence, no control.

So you just got to disregard it and focus on firstly, things you can control, and secondly, things you can influence.

Oh, that's great advice. I think too, something like what you said, it's so, in terms of, I think we're waiting for the next generation of leaders in the basketball world who understand the importance of everything we discussed today. And I think then everything's going to change.

I think too, it's as coaches, I think if we can offer something different, we can be more selective in the jobs we choose to take. That's one of the reasons I say it's so, that's why it's so important for coaches to spend time.

Learning about transformational leadership, learning about the CLA, because when you do that, I think you have something else unique to offer and you're not just like every other coach. And I think then the organizations who want the individuals who think differently, who are very innovative, well, if they want to attract those individuals, they're going to have to offer something that is not traditional.

And that's where I think wellbeing is really important because I know that's literally one of the biggest things that I look at in any job I would take in the future. It's how comfortable would I be? Would I have the space to be myself and share these ideas?

And I think if there was an environment that didn't have that, I wouldn't even consider it. And I just think it's, that's, it goes to show the importance in dedicating time to learning about everything we've discussed today.

Yeah.

Couldn't agree with you more, Alex. Well said.

Oh, thanks, Simon. I mean, look, I obviously everyone knows I love the stuff you guys are doing, but what would be the easiest way for a coach listening to this To hear more about MVMT Sports?

Yeah, stick our name in the old Google machine. Now we spell movement M-V-M-T. So if you Google MVMT Sports, MVMT Sports, you'll find us, you'll find our website. We're all over socials as well. Feel free to connect with Alan and myself, especially on Twitter.

You'll find us on Twitter.

If you find MVMT, you'll find Alan and myself.

And yeah, we really welcome people reaching out to us. Yeah, please feel free to get in touch.

Amazing. Simon, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a really enjoyable conversation for me. So Much appreciated.

Yeah, thanks, Alex. Thanks for having me.

Thanks for tuning into this episode of the Transforming Basketball podcast. If you would like to learn more about the work we do, head to www.transformingbball.com to access our free resources and help spread these ideas throughout the basketball world. If you enjoyed this episode, then please subscribe and leave a rating or review on your favorite podcast platform.

We will gladly answer any questions from today's episode via our social media platforms. See you next time on the Transforming Basketball Podcast.