Transforming Basketball Clinic in Piegros

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Hello and welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. On today's episode, I have Kerri Kuzbyt and François Lubino. I met François a couple years back when he came to London Lions to see what we were doing at the academy, and we instantly hit it off.

And then obviously we connected even more at the Transforming Camp last year, and we'll get a chance Soon at the time of the recording to hang out with Francois again at the Transforming Camp again and with Kerri. And I met Kerri, I believe we met at the camp last year, Kerri.

It was instant, like boom. Like, you know, you could tell Kerri was, you know, just different, you know, her work ethic. And I said this to you before, but I just want to say it on the podcast episode before I let you guys even introduce yourselves.

I just want to say thank you because you helped me add non-negotiables to my life. And that's really helped me with like being more clear with my intentions and what I do daily. So I'm going to stop talking and guys, do you want to say quick hello and introduce yourselves as well?

All right. First and foremost, I appreciate you, George, for acknowledging that, but it's when we find like-minded people and we pour into them as much as we pour into ourselves. And you know, it's awesome just that you acquired that and those non-negotiables.

So.

For those of you that do not know me, my name is Kerri Kuzbyt, originally from Canada and currently in Glasgow, Scotland for the last year and a half as I head up the player development here for the entire country for the federation, specifically focusing on the U14 and the female side.

And then I get the chance to be a transforming clinician and host events and clinics in different parts of the world and just meeting all these really great athletes from different cultures and just growing the game that way. So that's me.

When's your next clinic?

In July in Boston.

Nice. Okay, awesome.

And I'm François Rubineau. In fact, my main job is physical therapist, but basketball is a passion. So 3 years ago, I started again coaching in the club of my daughter, and I was looking for another approach. Because the traditional way was not really good for me.

Especially, I just realized a few months ago that finally I played basketball from 12, but almost playing streetball basketball. So the few times I spent basketball in a club was just comfortable. I just need some freedom. So that's why I searched some stuff on internet and saw what Alex was proposing about his approach.

I met him. 3 years ago in Italy when he was working for college prep. And after that, the story began.

Nice.

I met you in London, and we met in camp in Italy, and we met with Kerri. We talked a lot about female basketball. Yeah, the part of the female in basketball.

So François, how did you and your, and your daughter— you said it was your daughter's, you know, club, and we'll take a look at the, the clinic that you guys did in just a second. But how did you guys have that conversation 3 years ago?

I think you said it was about, you know, what, how can we approach this better? How can we, you know, what can we do better to help these players?

It's a tough way because I suppose you and Kerry just made this. When you try to change some stuff, it's not easy to, to say, okay, for now I have to change. Maybe I have to explore another way. So I just learned a lot.

I just try on the court for myself with my team. And after that, I shared this with the other coach in my club. And the camp was definitely last year a great experience because now you can share your experience with people thinking like you and having an open mind.

And yeah, it gives me strength to keep going in this way.

Yeah, just, you know, the Transforming Camp last year and obviously the clinic now. So we're going to take a look at the clinic that you guys held in Piedras. In France and talk about it. But like, just going to those live sessions so you can ask, you know, you have the clinicians there that you can ask questions.

You can see it, the games in person and see how they manipulate constraints, how Kerry manipulated the constraints to change the movement solutions for the players, change the environment so they had to adapt to the new rules or the constraints. So I think going live and having those conversations with people in real time.

Yeah. Helps so much for sure. Okay, so let me share my screen here and then we can have a look at this. Can you see my screen there?

Yep.

Perfect. Okay, so this is obviously you guys at the camp. You can see Kerry there, Francois there, and I'm just gonna play it and you guys, yeah, just jump in when you want to say something.

I'm going to be here and I'm going all like a waterfall. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to fall and I'm trying to jump as far as I can.

Okay.

So here, you're going to jump as far as you can and you're going to smash the ball. I want you to use the word smash. Smash the ball into the floor. So it would look like this.

Okay.

From here, we are now going to Yeah, so the biggest thing here is allowing the athletes to become adaptable with their finishes. And so by forcing them and giving them a problem in a way where they have to find a low position and start to coordinate themselves and have to really harness their power to Grab distance, and then now to explode up off of 2 feet to go now and play in the air off of that.

So by placing them in that position and allowing them to figure out how they could coordinate themselves best, put themselves there, is now when they really start to unlock different ways, both outside hand, inside hand, exploring both sides of the board is essentially the intent and the design of this task.

Yeah, I saw, I saw the other day, like with younger kids especially, I saw that it was like a child, like maybe a 4-year-old. They were like, this is how to properly do a squat. I think it was a video on Instagram that someone shared with me.

And, you know, you could tell that they're like, it looked wrong. Like it didn't look like it was, you know, a healthy looking squat, like, you know, the arch back. But then it was interesting because when they were asked to just pick something up off the floor, then they're instantly, they reorganized themselves and it looked like a much healthier.

Yeah.

I guess I want to say a deadlift, but like, you know, that, that squat functional movement to pick that off the floor. And it's essentially what we're doing here. Instead of, you know, telling them internal focus, you know, focus on your knees, you literally smash the ball into the floor and they're going to find these healthy solutions to do that.

Yeah.

I like how you phrase the word healthy and functional because that's essentially it. Instead of, you know, saying, hey, go play off of 2, and we gotta go inside hand or outside hand, extended finish for these younger kids. I just shift it. And as well as the approach with CLA is we kind of just gamify and direct their attention to, okay, the challenge is jump as far as you can.

And then that way they get lost in the fun and now they're actually organizing themselves in, again, better solutions and solutions that are best for their body to learn.

Yeah. And in these activities, they can make the experience to, to go forward with their body and to feel how the gravity works on the body. And definitely they can adapt, as I said before, on different finishing, depends from where they start and when they finish.

Yeah.

So at this age, it's very important to make this experience because sometimes they are afraid to fall down. Because, you know, in mentality, sometimes you are afraid to fall, but you can see with these activities, you can see that even I'm falling, I can control, I can adapt.

I kind of find my way to find a solution.

Their bodies and them understanding to be safe in them, because you never want athletes to feel unsafe in their bodies. So it's grabbing that competence, as François said, and just the body awareness, which is again, very athletic. quality that is kind of fundamental in that sort of sense that plays in part to that dexterity that we really want to develop in these athletes.

Yeah. And the last thing I'll build on this with is like, if athletes can fall down safely, then it actually helps them develop more solutions, you know, may have to require them to fall so that they're not scared of it. Right. So then they're able to do and try out more things without being scared to fail or fall.

If I dribble in here, I'm safe. You only get 3 dribbles in here.

Love this game, by the way.

3 dribbles, you must leave this space and try and go to a different one. We have 2 taggers. Yeah, so I absolutely love this. Took a few different parts from a few different tasks and activities and just tried it out myself. And the main thing here Is it hitting the principle?

And the principle and the focus that day that I had was spacing. So how quickly can you get into a space as quickly as you could get out? So now it's getting them to understand. And when we pair that with tag, it's one of the best, most functional ways in which athletes could start to develop those solutions and start to understand, okay, how quickly can I get into somewhere?

But again, maintaining efficiency, now going With intention and purpose to explore the other space. So staying within the 3-point line, constraining it, and at the same time going inside the cone and only giving them 3 dribbles is allowing them— again, once you enter a space, you don't want to stay there too long.

You want to exit it so that now you could have another teammate go through and create another opportunity, and you yourself seek out another one. So The biggest thing with this was spacing, but it was a great way to also pair in ball handling because I specifically manipulated the different types of dribbles they had to do inside the cones, as well as the type of dribble they had to do when they were trying to tag.

So just right hand, just left hand, just between leg dribbles. And you could have so much fun with this depending on the athletes where they are and challenging them. And it was a great way to get them right into the game and as warmup.

It was fantastic.

I had a warmup game that I really liked last year. I didn't do it this year, this season at all, but it's basically you hold hands, players hold hands, and let's say it's, you know, 6 players inside the 3-point line and the coach can call out.

So I used to call out like a trail, 45, corner, dunker. So different spots inside, you know, on the 3-point line. And the players would have to move there together, you know, while holding hands and whoever would get there would win. But then before they got there, I would change the spot.

So if I call corner, they could go to either corner, but before they got to the corner, I would call 45, and they have to, you know, quickly get to that spot. So it was a way for me— it just helped me, as you were saying that, for me to teach them the different spots on the floor, for them to learn the different spots on the floor while still finding different movement solutions.

And then you add a ball and it becomes chaotic. They're not holding hands anymore.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, it was a good one.

Yeah. And you know, Kerry, for example, we did it in February, just like George said, I use it, some activities like this and change or add some constraints. It's just amazing, even under 11, because in France it's under 11, how they can improve their dribble solution.

Don't need to teach a spin move between the leg, behind the back. They just find by themselves. I think it's very important to say that. The most important, they got a lot of fun.

Yes.

You can see on the video, they are laughing. For me, it's the main part.

And I agree, François. And I almost wonder, like, if you have a game, like, you know, you just have a dribble game and then you say you have to, you know, you can't be tagged if you turn your back on the opponent. And then it's almost like that will help them develop dribble solutions.

I just thought of it in my head now. It's like, oh, maybe worth a try.

But one of my favorite constraints to do, especially to handle ball pressure, Is that they can't turn their back.

Yeah, can't turtle.

Yeah, and you know what, look, I have under-9s, so just beginning of this year, and only one practice per week from September. Just amazing how now some girls and boys can dribble on the court. Just amazing. And they're maybe 7 or 8 years old, just with tag game, only tag game.

Yeah, man.

No, I'm going to change it. Once I jump in the air, she can move over. I still must smash it. Okay. And then I could finish either way. Okay.

Okay.

So Carrie, just before you go on there, like this is a great example as well of you changing the difficulty of the task. So this is very similar to that first game. But now you're adding that extra defender in there and they can't defend.

They have to hold the ball up. So they are defending, but they, you know, they can't try to block, for example.

Sure. Okay. So from the offensive side here, we're really focusing on now adding in that help side defender because they've gotten the time, become comfortable with adapting and coordinating themselves into how they could finish. So now we have to challenge this skill and we have to continue to keep that challenge.

So that they could continue to explore and develop those different solutions that, again, are going to be a lot more representative and transferable because they have now a helpside defender. So directing their attention to now picking up the cues of the angle, the speed, the distance with which the defense is covering is now going to give them time to practice now these adaptable and creative finishes that they did in a safe environment on the air.

To now a bit more game-like with that defender, because ultimately at the end of the day, they do need to have these on a defender. So they're still providing that safe environment.

And just, you know, such creative finishing solutions you see from the players, you know, really fun.

And they're very interesting because you are working the defense too, because as you can see, the position of the arms is a good position and you don't need to teach them what they have to do in defense. Or they can put themselves in a good position.

Yeah.

And you can, you can see that, like, it's almost like, I almost always think of it as well, François, like if you had a medicine ball and the defense was holding a medicine ball and they had to move sideways, that's a way of like doing some, you know, in the gym work on the basketball floor.

Yeah. I just spoke about the position of the arms. So you don't need to teach them how to put their arms, just experience the, uh, Yeah. During the activity, or they can put their arm in a good position.

And for me, I specifically put them in this position for 2 big things. One is that I still want to put them at a disadvantage to allow the offense to safely still do these adaptable finishes. So I'm getting them in a way where, yeah, they have to coordinate themselves, but it's going to be a bit slower than full-blown defender coming over.

So that's number one. It's kind of how to simplify that task and kind of change that dial of optimal challenge in a sense, while still pairing the perception and the action that we want with that helpside defender. Number 2, and reason why I put them specifically in this position for the defensive side, they have to, yes, coordinate themselves very quickly in their movements to how could they move over and still come over and play defense because maybe in a game you're in foul trouble.

And you want to be a shot changer, not a shot blocker. So now I'm attacking them defensively and creating these skills of how can you be disciplined in still providing the defense a challenge, but still defending maybe when you're in foul trouble. So that's the second thing that I was also designing here.

And the last thing with the defense being specifically in this position is that I'm allowing offense now to find these angles a bit more with these extensions.

Yeah.

Extended finishes because the game is played within the frames of the shoulders. So specifically with adaptable finishing and finishers that could have the highest percentage of conversion and how effective they are is by exploring outside the frame of those shoulders. So again, now I've put them in an environment where they have to now detect that perceptual cue on the defense.

And it's very evident because the ball's staying up here. And so now they could really find those angles to extend. Just as we have in this one right here going inside hand. So 3 big reasons why I put that defender like that and allowed a lot of great finishes and solutions to emerge because of it.

Yeah. And like you said, like just changing that, simplifying the task, making it harder depending on the level of the players. Yeah. Great example. So this is the last one, the jungle gym. This is a great one because it looks super fun. Super complex, but you know, just challenging in different ways.

And I think maybe you've mentioned it before when we spoke, but it was like about players being comfortable with contact as well.

Human jungle gym.

2 of you—

where's microphone 3? Yeah. Okay. So 2 of you have to work together.

Okay.

And you have to start on his back. I've never tried this before. Before I did it in the camp, I walked up to Francois Lemarie and said, I got a crazy idea. I'm just gonna try it and we're gonna have fun with it.

So specifically it was, yes, A, getting a bit more comfortable with contact, or B, now incorporating more collaborative exercises. As well for warmup. And then of course the very big portion of this is the movement coordination aspect of it. So allowing them to take their bodies in different shapes, working together, how they could now start to get in lower positions to help the teammate get over because their feet can't touch the ground.

So now they're exploring within their uniquely built bodies, hey, can I maybe get a little lower? Am I stronger in this position? Am I better in this way?

Yeah.

And so that was the kind of big intent behind it. And what started to emerge from their creativity and climbing was really great to see. And again, François even mentioned how he's had exposure to his athletes of just like wrestling and tumbling and rolling on the ground.

So again, it's getting that physical literacy and just allowing them to become athletes. And unlocking all these different positions in a way that they coordinate themselves in something that's pretty hilarious and fun.

When you see these activities, you see they are fun, et cetera. But we can imagine, oh, we are working on the nervous system. You feed your nervous system about the vestibular system, the proprioceptive system, the visual system. And it's the foundation to move quickly.

Safety with strength. So only a small exercise like this, it can be maybe easy to do it, but you give a lot of solution and you feed your definitely your nervous system.

That's great. You know, that one to me was just, you know, super creative, super fun. And I think that's, you know, like you said, François, instead of just telling them to do to move like this, you put them in an environment where. That's gonna be naturally emerging and it works so well.

Guys, I just have a few questions for you about your experience at the camp before we wrap. So thanks again for sharing those clips. So my first question is, what moments during the camp seemed to have the biggest impact on the players and why do you think that was?

For me, it's bigger— biggest impact was just because Kerry was there because you know what, uh, a new coach. A woman coach, for me it was very important because we didn't say that, but the camp was especially for female and mixedity because in our club we have a lot, a lot more and more girls are playing in youth section, under 9, under 11, under 13.

So for us, for me, it was very important to have another role model for these girls so they can identify to people. So for me, the biggest aspect is this. And she's speaking English. Well, you know, in France, the coach speaking English, wow, just amazing.

Yes, yes.

To play in pro. So only that, it was just amazing because you open your mind. And after that, all the content of the camp was just amazing. And for both players and coaches like me, we learned so much from Kerri. So thank you for your presence.

Yeah, for me, and François even said it, Specifically, it's going out and allowing these females to see me. And if you, I always say, if you could see her, you could be her. And just knowing the opportunities that can be there no matter where you are in the world.

And especially, yeah, when you start to hear a new voice with a different accent coming from a different viewpoint, it's very novel and it's very intriguing because it's unfamiliar. And I think the best parts of that camp were when I gave the athletes and Francois helping with me design the environment where we just allowed them to be athletes and creatively explore in a safe manner.

And their willingness within, you know, taking that invitation really allowed not only fun to occur, but skill to be officially acquired. And so by just giving them that space to just be creative and to be themselves, Were some of the greatest moments to just feel that.

Now, kudos, François, especially for organizing that with your daughter and the club, because I know that, you know, organizing camps is always a challenge because you could just, you know, keep things going because it's going well. But, you know, stepping out of your comfort zone and the club's comfort zone is, you know, obviously helping the players more so, like you said.

Can I also add to that though, George? Because François and where his club is and So beautiful, beautiful village. When athletes and individuals and coaches want to learn, want to invest in themselves, they will find a way. And so François and what the club and the athletes and the parents did, and I felt it immediately, that energy, it was a family-like energy that I've never experienced before.

And they did everything and anything to create this experience for those athletes. Where they went on radios, in newspapers. François had me meet the mayor. I'm surprised, like, they didn't gimme the keys to the city. And then he set up a game for the girls to then be walked out by the pros for Lyon.

And you could just imagine one day that little girl could say, hey, I was walking out with the pro and now she's the pro. And That was why this camp for me hit different in so many ways, because it went beyond just the camp content that we had.

We were thinking bigger picture, long game, and providing that experience that really just lasts and it sticks with you. And that for me, I want to express to François, thank you for allowing me to come into that environment and that culture that you've established there.

And there's a reason why those athletes were starting to pick up the skill. And just so much more, so much more efficiently because of the environment and the culture created. So thank you. And I can't wait to go back to that village. But again, it's just a testament to anybody who wants to expand their knowledge within events and camps like this.

And if you truly are serious about your growth for yourself and then the athletes in front of you, you'll find a way.

Thank you so much for your kind words. Definitely. Yeah, it was tough work to fix everything. Maybe 4 months of work every day, every night.

Yeah.

To find some money to support the camp. But it was because when you have some girls saying to you after the game or after 2 weeks, I want to be a pro. Yeah, you set some dreams for the kids. And I think now, for now, it's very important that all kids still keep dreaming.

Yeah, I think it's more than basketball.

Great point. And I think like those are some really great highlights. And, and, and I think, you know, it's great if we could sit here and be like, yeah, it was great. The whole thing was great. Nothing went wrong. But, you know, there are going to be moments in activities where things don't go as planned.

You know, players aren't engaged as you intended. So, you know, did that happen as I would imagine it did? And what did you guys do to resolve it? And what would you change next time? To hopefully not have as many of that happening.

For me, maybe, maybe you, you will tell me, Kerry, if I'm wrong. Maybe with under-11, some boys, a little bit difficult to involve them deep during the camp. Yeah, just remember sometimes we are just giving an activity, some advice. They are just playing, but not doing what we would like them to experiment.

So yeah, I think for me it was the biggest issue.

Yeah, I would agree, especially with the second group, the younger ones. Yeah. Some of the girls did 2 sessions, which was fantastic to have 'em through. But at a younger age, me and Francois both started to see kind of their intent and then the time on task and their, their quality kind of go down a little.

Some of the boys, absolutely, yes. But also putting into context there, it was then for me to have them engage a bit more. Would be to pop it, pop it faster, give them different type of variation within that. Still giving them the same reps, but especially for those boys a bit more than girls, they kind of need something before they kind of just say, the hell with it, I'm just gonna do my own thing.

So for me, I would definitely challenge myself in just continuing to change it up just a bit faster, especially with that second group. Yeah.

Especially, I feel like, like that in my own practice sometimes, cuz you know, You have to physically engage them as well as mentally engage the players. You know, I think one of the great things about the CLA and using it is that you can quickly change the constraints every minute, you know, every few reps or whatever the case is.

But like to a point where it's like in 10 minutes, you're getting like 10 different games because you're changing the constraints that many times. And you know, that automatically forces the players to like, okay, there's a new rule now. I have to think so I can win the game.

So that's an interesting point there. Lastly, in your own words, all right, so, and we spoke about it already, but the enjoyment, right? The learning and the competitiveness. In your own words, how did your camp support this with the design? You know, your games design, the camp design overall.

For me, it was clearly communicating that you shouldn't be scared to win everything. You want healthy competition. Because that's what's going to allow you to grow and continue to develop. And then at the same time, it's also welcoming the others to, okay, like I could really push here and, and go for it.

And again, not be put in a box, not kind of dim that light in a sort of sense. So for me, I clearly communicate, hey, I want you to compete here. Yes, we could still have fun, but You know, hold each other accountable and keep your standard because you wanna get better and you wanna use your time.

Don't waste, I always say, your time, but don't waste other people's time as well. So I clearly communicate that and it's always been received in a good way because I don't think a lot of maybe coaches, trainers, practitioners kind of invite that or tell athletes to, hey, I want you to get after one another, but we could get after another in a healthy, competitive way.

So. Designing and the beauty of CLA is when we award a point system as well. And we always give, hey, the first 3, hey, you want to be a winner? I even mentioned to the older boys group, I said, hey, who wants to be the lion, the lion in here?

And then they really got after it. So yeah, always gamifying it is, is a great way to do so.

Yeah. I learned a lot from you, Kari, about, about competition intense because I was not so Not doing so much score during my practice, especially for the young girls and boys. But I saw that definitely sometimes we need— one of the girls or two of the girls said to me, when I play, I want to think for myself first.

I think the best things they remember about the camp, because, you know, it's a collective sport, so we have to play all together. It's not bad to say that. And for me, it changed my mind, definitely. Because you want to, to share the ball, et cetera.

But definitely you have to play for yourself because when you play for yourself, you play for the team.

Yeah. And that's it. Yeah, you're right. Because that's, it's something that I clearly communicate to them, especially a bit more with the female culture, is that you have to be unselfishly selfish. And if you are not going to look for yourself first and your options, you in fact are actually making it harder for your teammates.

So expressing that and to hear that, and you even texted me about like a little over like a few weeks ago saying how your daughter, 9 years old, said, hey, I look for myself. Kerri would've told me that. And just to hear that and just the ripple effect after something like that, like, it's awesome.

You know, they took that and they're kind of viewing, you know, not only sport, but you know, in the world, you gotta put yourself first. You gotta fill up your cup before you can fill somebody else's cup up.

So.

Yeah.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like with younger kids, like, you know, that U9, U11 age group, I would say the more of the problem isn't telling a kid to be, you know, you need to pass the ball more, but it's almost the opposite.

Like mostly those kids are like, you know, they really wanna fit in and play, you know, collectively that it's almost like, listen, you are wide open. Why didn't you shoot that ball? So I don't know if you guys agree with that, but—

You have definitely, both of you are more experienced, but In my club, it's funny. That's why we keep under-11 all together, boys and girls, one practice per week. Because what I see with the boys, I want just finish. If I can finish by myself, I finish.

And the girls, we share the ball all the time. It's great, but at one point you have to finish. Put them all together, it's fun because you see the boys finally, so, oh, even I make the pass, I can win.

Yeah.

And the girls saw, Yeah, I can fish by myself, but it doesn't mean I don't take care about the other. So you find like a balance in the team. And as you said, Kerry, we talked about this last year in Italy. It's very important to keep girls and boys all together, even under 13.

Yeah.

2 days ago, I just, as physical therapist, I got a patient from the national French team. She played in Tarbes when we saw the game. in February. So she has some issue on the shoulder. So she came to, just amazing story, but anyway, she came to my, to my office and we talked about this and she said to me, she played with ball until 13.

I did too.

And she liked so much. And she told me, you have to keep this because you are improving the basketball IQ and the basketball, how you see basketball, even for girls and boys.

Yeah. It's very important to even express it's not just a benefit for the girls in that sort of sense. It's a benefit for the boy as well. It's, it's challenge because they're a different person, they're a different problem. Maybe it's not a physical constraint and a challenge that the girls are faced with because that, like, you can't mimic the stature of a male.

And that's why I always loved playing with boys growing up my first 10 years till I was 14. And then when I was playing professionally, I only wanted to train with boys cuz you can't really mimic that stature and those physical constraints. They come less scarce.

In females. So there's benefits for that. But then on the male side of things, they're being taxed with, okay, different solutions, faster decision-making. And so it's, it goes hand in hand. I think that gets lost sometimes, especially when you talk about a mixed group.

It's going to be, oh, it only benefits the girl. No, it doesn't. It benefits both of them. And yeah, there's just, I'm a huge advocate for it. We've expressed it itself and Yeah, it's just, it's incredible because there are those cultural differences where it's a bit more evolutionary on the macro side, where when you look, females kind of just, you know, staying at home, not working, the males, and just like those gender roles, very historical ones.

So you can even see that very prominent, but being aware of that, now you can understand, oh, this is why girls are kind of a bit more giving. And then that's where you attack it. And then that's your, you know, rate limiter in that sort of sense.

So.

I think that's a great point to, to end it on. Guys, I wanna thank you both for taking the time. You know, like I said, just, I think we've mentioned it a few times in the podcast, but just the desire to grow both personally and, you know, grow the game is, you know, I think the biggest thing for anybody out there, cuz you could be doing it wrong, you could be doing it right, whatever that means.

But the fact is you're trying to grow the game and, you know, just For the next generation, leave it a bit better than we found it. And I think that's what it's all about. And that's ultimately what Transforming Basketball is about as well.

So once again, thank you so much and thank you for your time. And I will see you both in Italy.

Yes, sir. Thank you, George. Francois.

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