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This is the Transforming Basketball Podcast. This is the podcast helping coaches and practitioners change the way we think about basketball performance. Our goal is to provide the ultimate resource for making sense of applying contemporary skill acquisition ideas within basketball. Within this podcast, we unpack how an ecological dynamics framework impacts our perspective of the game.
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Welcome to the Transforming Basketball Podcast. On today's episode, we have Eric Leganski. Eric is a sports performance coach and he founded the company Athletes on the Rise. It's a sports company developing complete athletes from youth through elite to earn college scholarships and professional contracts.
1:00
So Eric and I actually did this episode as a collaboration. So it was great to be able to have this opportunity to just talk with him about everything related to principles of play, the science behind strength and conditioning. And again, if you'd like to hear more about this podcast and what we talk about, please do check out the full-length episode.
1:27
What do you think is like optimal learning? Because, you know, you spoke about having a 5-on-5 and then simplifying it to 2-on-2 because naturally players are going to make more decisions and then, you know, they can learn better, learn faster because they're going to be in more simplified environments.
1:43
So they can, you know, instead of having to worry about all the potential opportunities that's available for them, they only have to worry about, you know, the specific skill that we want to work on. And Going back to my example, the pocket pass, if we go 2-on-2 wall pick and roll.
1:56
So my question to you is like, you know, is that the best way to learn, do you think?
2:01
So optimal learning, as we spoke about the other day, for me, I'm always looking for that sweet spot of error where they're making errors and they're also having success. So I have my own ratios that I use, and personally I'm looking at like a 70-30 ratio.
2:16
And obviously in the beginning it's going to be a little bit more But how quickly are they comprehending and grasping what it is that we are trying to implement, teach, constrain to let things come out, whatever the situation is? And as an example for a screen and roll, right?
2:32
So if we're working on a sideline screen and roll and we're in a 5-on-5 situation and person just cannot even get to a spot to use the screen because the defender, they don't have the capability of being able to handle the pressure, change speeds, change direction into space, out of space.
2:48
They just kind of like run and then they're dribbling off their foot. And that's like 5 times in a row. It's like, all right, well, I'm noting that in my head, like player development workouts or when we have other times to break things down, or maybe we have to use a different progression where now I may have to teach in a 1-on-1 situation or sometimes even a 1-on-0.
3:08
So the number one thing I'm looking for is error percentage. Too much frustration is they're not going to want to continue to do it. Too little frustration or like too little error, they get bored and they don't want to be there. So that like succinctly, that's how I put it is optimal learning.
3:22
Hey, are they having some error? Are they having some success? And then you have to know your progressions from there.
3:27
And I guess it will depend as well because like, say for example, the task is the sideline pick and roll, but to your point, they can't actually get to the sideline pick and roll. That wouldn't even classify as maybe the error you're even looking at.
3:40
So maybe like what you're actually working on is Can you score? Can you find a high-value shot from the sideline pick and roll, depending on whether it's 2-on-2, 3-on-3, 4-on-4? So can you do— and then from there, you're looking at that 70-30. So not anything before that.
3:55
Like, if they can't even do what you're asking them to do, then you're— of course, that percentage is going to be much lower, but you want to simplify it to actually find that 70-30, if I understand you correctly, right?
4:04
Right, exactly. And I, I think also is having that understanding as a coach, like Coach Dixon would say this all the time as a basketball coach, like, time takes time. It does. Like, you, in order to get them, like you said, to that point of like, hey, we can make reads now.
4:18
We can understand, hey, they're hedging, they're trapping, they're switching, they're icing, whatever it may be. Here are different options and we can go through our guided reads, scripted and playing live, et cetera. But if you can't dribble there, then we're having, we have other things we have to work on first.
4:32
So yes, like, can you handle pressure one-on-one and can you change speed? Can you change direction? And even then, when you get that competitively, if you can't see that, that's when you start to peel off even more. So it's, and that's where the art and science is of a coach, right?
4:45
Where can I, where can I help them learn, but at the same time encourage them to want to continue learning?
4:51
Player development, so important.
4:53
Yeah. Well, and I also think it is a, you really get into like a philosophical, this could be, I don't know if we're going to go down this path today, but it's, it's a very interesting philosophical debate of how much You want the player to experience stress and failure in certain things that you do because your mental resilience is built through your ability to overcome failure.
5:15
And if you don't ever reach those points of like having a lot of failure, when you do reach those times in life, then you are going to automatically give up and say, this is too hard. So it's, there's, there's other philosophical things there too, of like, how are you going to stress them in different ways to see What's going to pull out, you know, how do you make them the worst version of themselves so they can better the worst version of themselves?
5:37
And I also think you as a coach have to be, you have to create the culture where it's okay to fail. 'Cause I, you know, growing up, I was in a lot of environments as a player. You know, I remember thinking back to my youth days and it was the coach would always say, if you don't know, ask, like, don't do it.
5:53
Like, don't do it and do it wrong. Whereas now my perspective is completely different. I always say, figure it out on your own, like try and fail. And if you do that with the information I've given you, that's absolutely fine because then we can talk about it and learn from it, from, you know, what you understood by it.
6:09
So it's like creating a culture where it's actually okay for players to fail so that they can, you know, build that mental resilience as well. Because if you're always afraid to fail, you're never going to have that opportunity to learn from it.
6:20
So in your opinion, what does it look like as far as culturally or within an environment where Someone, it's okay to fail? Like, what does that look like within the dynamics of the team? And when you've seen it's not okay to fail and it's in a different way, in a way that you wouldn't prefer, can you, can you, you know, deconstruct those 2?
6:41
That's an interesting question. Like, it's okay to fail. I think like judging the— firstly, you know, you always have to have your non-negotiables. So it's like you have to have high effort. You have to be, you know, selfless. Sometimes being selfish is a way to be selfless depending on the type of play you You know, whether finishing an open shot and, or trying to pass it out, you see it a lot now.
7:02
Like players have open layups, but they still pass it out to the 3-point line. But it's like, you have to establish those non-negotiables. All right. And then from there, I think you can like judge the decision-making.
7:14
I call it skill layering. That's my favorite phrase is being able to strip everything away. And can you just do the stuff with your feet?
7:22
Like, can you physically do this and get into these positions? Do you have the strength capability? Do you have the nervous system awareness to be able to do this? Because your body's going to naturally do what it— where it has its strengths and weaknesses.
7:34
So, so this is also an opportunity to like correct asymmetries and build up strength. So whatever that footwork may be. So if we're doing, you know, like a, a punch stop, right? Like, can you lunge forward and backwards on each leg? Now, can you do that with a little bit of force?
7:46
Can you push off and come to that deceleration? Now, can you do that with like A punch, like with that, with that dribble. Now, can you do that with the punch dribble with the weight shifts? Now you can do that with the weight shift and you have the reacceleration, right?
7:59
So you have all of those without the ball, all of it with the ball. And then same thing. Do you have that other option too? After that, can you change directions? Right? Do you have, can you get whether it's a cross step, slide step, open step, whatever it may be, and layer that together.
8:13
Now, after that, can you do that with speed? Right? Can you, can you build up speed, come to that quick stop, build it up? Same thing without the ball, with the ball. All right, now let's put a defender in front of you and let's get this a little bit more situational.
8:24
Let's have like the guided reads where you can feel that, because as soon as you put someone in front of you, a lot of times, especially at younger levels, they freak out. They forget where their feet are. They forget who they are. And so a lot of times you have to like calm them down again and get them to focus on their feet.
8:40
And From there, so it's a guided, okay, hey, you're just going to stop and go, stop and go after, you know, 2, 3 dribbles or certain spots, whatever it may be. Then can you do that with the defense after you stop? They, they bite and they jump over to the other side.
8:55
Now you have to change hands, right? Okay, great. And then I, that's like your base. Now, can you do that being fully guarded and read live? Hey, I can keep going or I can change directions or hey, I already have an advantage. I don't have to stop at all.
9:08
Right now I can use those same things getting into that screen and roll. Right. And then it's a little bit of a process. And then it's, I mean, rinse, wash, repeat with whatever you feel is going to be the thing that is going to help them, so to speak.
9:22
And then you, you get into your constrained spaces, right? So you get into the, hey, we're in a circle or hey, we're in a square and I have to be able to protect the ball and accelerate, decelerate, backup dribble, do those, do those types of things.
9:34
And again, those are, those are things I would have already done to see, like, does it come out naturally? But a lot of times it doesn't. So again, this is at the, at the bare base of you've, you've explained it, you put them in different situations, you see it's not coming out.
9:47
It's like, all right, we can, we can speed the process here a little bit if we teach their bodies how to move and feel that rhythm and that coordination a little bit more.
9:54
Yeah, the strength and conditioning part of it. I always find it interesting because I always think, like, you know, with strength and conditioning, there's a lot of Let's lift, you know, for older players now, you know, let's lift, let's get in the weight room.
10:06
And I think that's great. But also like, if you were to do the same like basketball activity, so let's say you're working on the stampede or the go catch. Like if you were to just do that, like, you know, you could set up a small-sided game, but to your point, maybe you're doing it one-on-one because it's strength and conditioning, but now you put a weighted ball.
10:23
I love, I really like weighted balls for S&C, but now you put a weighted ball in there.
10:28
And it's the same thing, but they just have to catch and then like go as fast as they can. And then to me, you know, that's working on their strength and conditioning just as much as, and it's like, you know, specific to the sport as well, the movement, just as much as being in the weight room.
10:42
In your opinion, what is that working on from a strength and conditioning standpoint?
10:46
Yeah, the same movement, but now you're having more resistance. So it's, you know, it's in my opinion, and maybe you would know better than me here. But it's, you're getting like, just like in the gym, you know, you can do a curl and it's, you know, without weights, but then you add weights and it just becomes more resistant so that next time you're, you know, and then as you grow older, you live healthier, your muscles last longer.
11:09
So then it's the same thing in the sports context. Now you're able to do the same movement, but faster when you strip that back.
11:15
I'm going to go down a rabbit hole when it comes to this a little bit. So you're not incorrect because you will get a motor neural response of something was heavier. Now, if I use a regular basketball, now this feels lighter, so I feel faster, right?
11:31
So there's this overload effect that allows the body to feel faster. Now, when you're looking at weighted ball, a weighted ball, you're never going to be— it's never going to be as fast as like a basketball, your ability to dribble it. So you, you can look at that as like an overload for like power, like strength, quote unquote.
11:54
But speed, when you're looking at speed, there's a lot that goes into that as far as what it takes to get there. So let's say, for example, one thing I see a lot of is players when they're trying to get downhill in a straight line, there's no one there, their ability to be in those accelerative positions and be able to push through the ball of their foot, etc.
12:15
And a lot of that, and then again, this is where I might differ from some people. A lot of that has to do with like their ability to be strong within their feet and be able to absorb and redirect force through the ball of their foot to get that like quick twitch through their Achilles and through their patellar tendon, et cetera.
12:30
And when you have overload with mechanics that are, you know, I guess you would say their own mechanics, like this is what they can do now, they will get Somewhat faster with, or they will feel, I'm going to say feel somewhat faster because when you look at, when you do a, like, let's say even if you do like a band, a resist band run, because of the frequency of firing is, becomes more latent, becomes less quick.
12:58
As they've shown on studies that you actually get a little bit slower at times depending on the person. That's why I'm saying that it's so It's so intricate and detailed because if I'm, if I'm a player that I'm running through my heels and I'm overstriding and I don't know how to put force into the ground, and then I put weight and I load into that, that will help me potentially feel a bit lighter, but it can also put, because you're moving suboptimally, can also put you at risk of, you know, some, some injuries.
13:29
I really like the concept of self-organization and giving like external cues to help guide that. You know, the correct form. But then as a coach, you also need to know what the correct form is looking like. And to me, it really, it simply means like it's a functional form that isn't making the athlete, isn't breaking down their body basically.
13:48
So I think a good example of like self-organization, like toddlers even, is like, you know, if you teach a toddler how to squat, they're going to do it wrong. You can try it, right? They're just going to do it wrong. They're going to hinge their backs.
14:00
It's It's gonna look messy. But if you say to that toddler, all right, I just want you to pick this pen up from the floor, naturally, like they're gonna squat down in a really functional way to pick something up off the floor and then get up.
14:13
And then it's just like, oh wow, they just self-organized to do it because I gave them this external cue versus trying to control, oh, keep your back straight. You know? So I think it's really important for you to know what it looks like, like what the good quote unquote good form looks like, and then using the
14:29
And I think within the research that I've read as well, when you're looking at internal versus external cues and like at the different ages and different levels, their effectiveness, I think one of the things I read on, if you're using internal cues all the time, that can, and I talked about this with some, some other skill development people as well, how that can create a greater likelihood of choking, so to speak, or like having these like little hitches and such.
14:52
If you're always thinking about internal cues rather than, you know, thinking about ball path or where the ball needs to go or, you know, where your, your shoe needs to go or what, you know, whatever it may be. I think, I think footwork might be a little bit different.
15:04
It's not as, you know, fine-tuned. I think you can say, hey, put your foot here, put your foot there, et cetera. But yeah, those, those central, you have to feel this or get your elbow here. I mean, there's so much when you're not thinking about making the shot, it creates a lot more tension, can create a lot more choking.
15:20
But something I wanted to get back to talking about, you know, you've been in Brazil here for this past year coaching there. First of all, can you talk to what your practice, like what the logistics were? How many times did you practice per week?
15:34
How many times was it a team practice? How many times was it maybe, you know, individual/player development practice? Speak to that. And then I may have some more questions off of that.
15:42
I'll give you what I did last season because this season I haven't really worked with My, I guess I wouldn't say my own team. So we practice 5 times a week, team practices last year. And then we did skill session 3 times a week and then 3 more times a week, strength and conditioning.
15:59
So you're looking at, there was an app 3 times you're looking at, you know, it was, this is how it was split up. It was 6 times a week. We had an afternoon session. So 3 of those were skills. 3 of those were S&C.
16:11
And then 5 times a week you're having team practices. And then you either have a game, most times you have a game on the weekend. So you're looking at 6 days a week practice, and then sometimes you'll have a game like middle of the weeks.
16:23
So that was how it was structured last year. I think for me, I really like wanted to get away from set plays initially. And the reason is because, you know, all the set play is, is a combination of triggers. So if we could just get really good at Punishing the defensive coverage on the trigger, then we could run any set and we're going to be so much better because of it.
16:47
But I think a lot of the times, and I'll get back to your question, but just to wrap this up, but a lot of the times you want to, as coaches, we want to run the sets and we want to have control over how the players are playing.
16:59
But then what that does, it takes away the player's attention to the potential opportunities that they might have to break the play. And create dominoes like that. It's like the example I always give, or I gave to my players, was like, you know, if you could work for 1 hour a day.
17:16
So let's say you have a 9 to 5, but instead you could, you only had to work 1 hour a day to get paid. Wouldn't you want to do that? And they're like, yeah, of course. So it's like, it's the same thing with it on offense.
17:27
Like the aim of offense is to create an advantage. So if you want to break the play, or whether that's with a reject, with an early skip pass. To create the advantage, why wouldn't you do it? Right. And I think a lot of the times with running sets, we force the players to go through the sets.
17:43
How many times have you heard, you know, run it through, right, to get to the end of the play? Whereas in actual fact, you just want the advantage. Doesn't matter when it comes. And then you can play with your advantage principles from there.
17:53
So for me, you know, to start the season, I focused a lot on green, so transition offense. And then from there, I focused on our yellow, which is the triggers. So how we can, after we get into our arrival spacing, how we can flow into triggers.
18:08
And then also Domino's Principle. So how do we play when we have an advantage? So zero-second decisions, floor is lava, and one can't guard 2. So that's spacing. And then how we play to attack, shoot, drive, pass once we catch that ball. And then finally, I think the cool thing about when you're, when you're, you know, using small-sided games and Manipulating constraints is that you can also work on defense at the same time as you're working on offense.
18:37
So, you know, I never really like what I would do once a week, I would score defense. And I did find that practices were a lot more competitive. So like while I was adding in dominoes principles, I was also talking about, all right, how are we going to scramble out of these situations?
18:51
While I was adding in triggers, I was also talking about which coverage we were going to be using. So while we were in green, I'm still talking about our transition principles, whether that was tagging up or You know, the emergency principles of protecting basket and ball.
19:04
So it's like that saves time and allows me to be more efficient. So I, that's how I structured it early on. And then obviously as the season goes on, as a coach, I have this checklist of things that I want to install during the season.
19:17
And then I just kind of go through it. It's like, all right, what can really help this team going forward? So maybe that's adding another pick and roll coverage. Maybe that's adding another defensive scheme. Special situations, sideline, out of bounds. So it just, so as the season went on, it was just about how can I build on these really simple things, which are Domino's principles, triggers, transition offense, and then, you know, kind of like our shell defense.
19:42
And then how can I add things to that to just build it up?
19:45
When within your green, let's say, what were your, let's say the Preseason leading into the season, how many triggers did you actually develop and use?
19:58
We only did 2, which was picks and gets. So like, you know, pass and go get it, almost like a DHO, but the receiver still has a dribble. Looking back, I wish we would have done more solos just because naturally the players were really skilled with the ball.
20:16
They just were naturally really skilled. And I just didn't take that into consideration. It goes back to like doing something for the sake of doing it and not really knowing why you're doing it. So I wish I could have just like, all right, we're going to, you know, we're going to, that's going to be our first trigger.
20:29
We're going to solo because we really struggled like getting into space. Now, I don't want to say we struggled. I think we were a solid team, but we had a lot of challenges, especially in the preseason, like finding space to run a get, for example, because teams would take away that pass and then they didn't know what to do.
20:46
So they had like 3-quarter full front deny, et cetera. And then you have trouble. But if the, if the getter, couldn't they just cut backdoor off that? And then they hit that and you got dominoes, or was that just like—
20:56
No, exactly. That's a great point. But, but they just like, the other teams were just so good taking that away. Whereas if they cut backdoor, you know, then the weak side would be there kind of thing. So they, it just wouldn't be, there wouldn't be an advantage.
21:08
And then like, even if they cut backdoor and the weak side comes, And then maybe that player could like sprint up for the get, but we just, because it was preseason, you know, we had 2 weeks to prepare and we focused a lot on other, um, on other things like the green and things like that.
21:24
So I do wish, you know, I would have focused a little bit more on just solos, which is one-on-one from the perimeter. But I think you asked about green, right? What was the question?
21:34
I didn't ask about green yet. I was going to get to that, but I wanted to talk to it or actually clarify when you're, You're talking solo. I mean, you're basically going 5-out dribble drive, right? Like drive, hit the key once you draw a second defender, or did you have like someone in the dunker?
21:47
Yeah, go 4-out with someone in the dunker. And the reason being, because you just didn't create natural double gaps for the attack to happen. It wouldn't have rules like the dribble drive offense, but instead, like, you know, players have— the way I would do it now, because I didn't do it then, but the way I do it now, I'd set a constraint.
22:04
So you either have, like at practice, they either have 4 dribbles or 4 seconds to create an advantage. With the solo. If they can't do it, they have to pass it on. If they do manage to create an advantage, so then, you know, that's where we have our other Dominus principles of one can't guard 2.
22:18
So maybe we're ghost cutting, cut and slide, slot cut. Maybe we're wheeling under or wheeling over or holding space. So that's how I would do the solos. Now, I think Alex might've said this in a recent Q&A we had on the Transforming Community, and it was like basketball is usually played with 4 out.
22:34
Because usually when the trigger is happening, like you could be 5 out, but the trigger is happening and that picker becomes part of the cut-in, right? So it's like, it's an interesting point where like it's always 4 out anyway.
22:46
And it all evolves to that at some stage, even if you are 5 out and you have that ghost cut, that person's going to be in there in some way. So say you already have someone in the dunker, right? And you know, their, their habit is wheeling under.
22:58
Are you doing anything else on the perimeter to get players to cut or are they just holding space? Are they, you know, pushing, pulling, et cetera?
23:05
Yeah. So for me personally, yes. So regardless if they're in the dunker, so let's say it's on the left 45 and it's a middle drive, that player in the dunker would wheel under and then we would still have our cut and slide principle there.
23:18
And then same thing, if, you know, if they managed to create an advantage going baseline, that player in the dunker might actually hold space because, or give a little wheel over because then there's going to be a slot cut, right? So it just goes, and then that's quite complex.
23:33
And I do think you, you know, that's the beauty of small-sided games. You can maybe recreate that. And now you're playing a 3-on-3 game with an advantage start, 3-on-3 game with someone on the 45, someone in the dunker and someone in the opposite 45.
23:47
And then from here, it's a baseline drive and they have to figure out how to move to not get in each other's way. Because obviously if you're wheeling all the way over and you're cutting at the same time, You're probably going to get in each other's way, right?
23:58
So you have to use small-sided games to teach that. And I do think it is, you know, it does take time, but you're con— the way you manipulate constraints can really guide and accelerate learning as well.
24:09
Further clarify the example, ball's on the left 45 slot, they drive middle, you know, obviously dunker wheels under. But then you said you would have a slot cut or corner and then corner hold type thing, or are the— is it just reading the defense?
24:23
Yeah. So I think the players do have to read the defense. 'Cause I know, I know there was, you know, you could have it as an automatic, but I just think if the defender from the corner is already in the paint, then you're probably going to do well to just hold the corner and get a 3.
24:37
But most of the time teams aren't going to guard it like that. So you are going to create more space by cutting and sliding. So if it's a middle cut, there's going to be a wheel under, and then there's going to be a cut from the corner and then a slide from the opposite 45 or slot to the corner.
24:52
That's just going to stretch the defense.
24:54
Cool. Well, thank you, George, for having me on your podcast and for being on my podcast. Really appreciate it. This was fun. We'll have to do it again here.
25:03
Yeah, absolutely, man. I had a lot of fun. Great question. Thanks for having me on.
25:12
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25:31
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